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Can Cruz legally be president? Ivy League scholars debate
Virgina Pilot online ^ | 2/5/16 | COLLIN BINKLEY

Posted on 02/06/2016 1:47:14 AM PST by RC one

Edited on 02/06/2016 5:34:58 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

BOSTON (AP) — Two legal scholars squared off in a public debate on Friday to settle whether Republican Ted Cruz is eligible to become president. Spoiler alert: They didn't settle it.

But the debate at Harvard Law School underscored that conflicting interpretations of the U.S. Constitution can produce different answers. The question has been in the national spotlight since Republican rival Donald Trump suggested that Cruz, who was born in Canada to an American mother, isn't legally qualified to be president.


(Excerpt) Read more at pilotonline.com ...


TOPICS: Society
KEYWORDS: 2016electionbias; academicbias; birtherism; birthers; blamecanada; canadian; cruz; doublestandard; naturalborncitizen; naughtyteacherslist; obamawasntvetted; repositorycruz
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To: Windflier
If your argument relies on historical fact, then you accept the concept that a natural born citizen is defined as one who is born within the territorial jurisdiction of a country to two citizen parents.

No I do not, because that is not a historical fact. What you are doing is taking a certain class of individuals who are without question natural born citizens and making that class exclusive, when it never was. The truth is that there has always been controversy about who is and who is not a natural born citizen, because there was no single standard, even at the time the Constitution was framed.

This is a can that has been kicked down the road for over 200 years.

There are a range of indicia that can and have been used to determine whether or not the individual in question can be considered a natural born citizen, including, but not limited to the citizenship of the parent(s) and the place of birth. The common law of England emphasized the place of birth, but that view was generally rejected by the framers, despite English common law still governing in many of the States. The 'Law of Nations' emphasized the citizenship of the parent(s), for as Vattel said, the condition of the children is bequeathed to them by their parents. To quote Vattel: "I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country."

There is no valid historical justification for amalgamating these two concepts, despite much confused and contradictory case law and dicta.

It is quite clear which indicia the Framers preferred.

Further, it is well within the sovereign right of We the People acting through our legislative representatives in Congress, to define the indicia we choose for the purpose of determining - not granting, and not redefining - those considered holding natural born citizenship.

This is nothing at all different to the way we set standards and indicia to be used for the purpose of determining who is and who is not a 'resident' of a particular State. This is done by statute and these statutes are subject to change and States are not held to enforce the indicia used in 1787.

And, Congress has indeed defined the indicia to be used to determine those who are considered to be citizens by birth, aka natural born citizens in 8 US Code 1401. Open and shut. Case closed.

141 posted on 02/06/2016 7:20:38 AM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
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To: RC one

Don’t bother wasting everyone’s time, including yours and mine, by lecturing me on the obvious and already well understood Constitutional provisions.


142 posted on 02/06/2016 7:22:48 AM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
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To: John Valentine

you seem like you’re a little testy.


143 posted on 02/06/2016 7:32:14 AM PST by RC one ("...all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens" US v. WKA)
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To: John Valentine

All statute law is subservient to, and (should be) reliant upon the Constitution. Any law that is repugnant to the Constitution is without force, and is invalid on its face.

You quote Vattel, yet curiously don’t seem to follow his reasoning that the child’s citizenship derives from their father’s.

Even if you only accept that one excerpt, you then concede that Ted Cruz is not eligible, due to his father’s citizenship at his birth.


144 posted on 02/06/2016 7:33:11 AM PST by Windflier (Pitchforks and torches ripen on the vine. Left too long, they become black rifles.)
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To: Popman
-- Allegiance to America is the root argument and intent of the founders being made here... --

The founders (and many who followed them, including SCOTUS, see Kawakita) saw two potential pitfalls. One is that the president might have affection for his home country (be that by birth or upbringing), the other being that his home country has, in fact, a bona fide claim on the person.

Dual citizenship carries a potential for trouble and mischief.

Your point of view is that naturalized citizens should be allowed to assume the presidency. That is a popular point of view. It has been advanced in Congress several times.

145 posted on 02/06/2016 7:38:56 AM PST by Cboldt
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To: RC one

Rubio is not even a citizen.


146 posted on 02/06/2016 7:41:17 AM PST by freedomjusticeruleoflaw (Western Civilization- whisper the words, and it will disappear. So let us talk now about rebirth.)
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To: Popman
FWIW, Canada had more right to join the US when it was a confederacy, than any other colony.

Canada acceding to this confederation, and adjoining in the measures of the United States, shall be admitted into, and entitled to all the advantages of this Union; but no other colony shall be admitted into the same, unless such admission be agreed to by nine States.
Articles of Confederation
147 posted on 02/06/2016 7:41:58 AM PST by Cboldt
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To: freedomjusticeruleoflaw

Imagine what happens if he becomes President.


148 posted on 02/06/2016 7:43:36 AM PST by RC one ("...all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens" US v. WKA)
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To: RC one
Not weighing in on Cruz, just filling in what you left out of the oath of enlistment. I recognize your point related to the Constitution thus the truncation, but the omission is significant. I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed ... according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
149 posted on 02/06/2016 7:45:54 AM PST by SJackson (What I’m watching in him (O), is uncertainty...a leader doesn’t give sh*t...he gets it don)
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To: RC one

Please note that this opinion, like all of the opinions that support Cruz et al, is written long after the adoption of the Constitution and therefore holds little sway.


150 posted on 02/06/2016 7:48:13 AM PST by freedomjusticeruleoflaw (Western Civilization- whisper the words, and it will disappear. So let us talk now about rebirth.)
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To: Cboldt
 photo image_zpshj7fsfns.jpeg
151 posted on 02/06/2016 8:50:24 AM PST by bushpilot2
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To: Cboldt
The founders (and many who followed them, including SCOTUS, see Kawakita) saw two potential pitfalls. One is that the president might have affection for his home country (be that by birth or upbringing), the other being that his home country has, in fact, a bona fide claim on the person.

Both valid points

Cruz was four years old when his family moved to America...I don't think four year old have developed an affection for their country of birth...Cruz has been here for 40 years, a Texan, Texas Solicitor General, and Senator.

Cruz dropped his dual citizenship so Canada would have no claim on him...

The potential pitfalls should be taken in context on who is running and why...

As an example:
I see far more dangerous pitfalls in a Hillary / Sanders Presidential victory than any pitfall that might be made against Cruz or Rubio...

My suspicion is the whole Cruz birther issue on FR is more of trying to knock out a potential Trump challenger than any REAL concern about where his loyalties lie...

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems almost all of the posters pushing this issue are ardent Trump supporters..

152 posted on 02/06/2016 9:14:33 AM PST by Popman (Christ alone: My Cornerstone...)
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To: RC one
Ted Cruz already swore to support and defend the Constitution of the United States

Oath of office (Senate)
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

Should he resign?

153 posted on 02/06/2016 9:24:05 AM PST by Popman (Christ alone: My Cornerstone...)
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To: Popman
My suspicion is the whole Cruz birther issue on FR is more of trying to knock out a potential Trump challenger than any REAL concern about where his loyalties lie...

My suspicion is that a whole bunch of freepers bought into Cruz's churchy BS and sent him money and now they don't want to admit that they were suckers throwing good money down the drain so they have convinced themselves that it's OK to support him despite his ineligibility and we're all supposed to just go along with it.

I wouldn't be supporting Trump either if he wasn't a NBC btw.

154 posted on 02/06/2016 9:24:45 AM PST by RC one ("...all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens" US v. WKA)
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To: Popman

he is not constitutionally prohibited from holding his senate seat. He sure as heck is subverting the constitution by running for President though.


155 posted on 02/06/2016 9:26:44 AM PST by RC one ("...all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens" US v. WKA)
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To: Popman
Cruz's parents could have taken him to Cuba, and he'd be as much a Cuban there as he is an American here.

If loyalty is to be the test, then those naturalized citizens who made a choice, as adults, to become US citizens are superior to those who are natural born.

156 posted on 02/06/2016 9:28:14 AM PST by Cboldt
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To: RC one
My suspicion is that a whole bunch of freepers bought into Cruz's churchy BS

How condescending of you...

I bought into Cruz as well as many other conservative FReepers, because he is a constitutional conservative...unlike Trump.

The churchy BS (as you say) just happens to be a plus...

It concerns me that Trump does not seem to have a personal moral compass...bedding women who aren't his wife, married three times, etc...

157 posted on 02/06/2016 9:33:07 AM PST by Popman (Christ alone: My Cornerstone...)
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To: grania
"The argument for Cruz stated that laws since the Constitution have changed what is written in the Constitution. Silly me. I thought only amendments could change the Constitution."

This baloney endures because we allow it. You're quite right. Congress can pass laws regarding naturalization. They cannot create a naturally born citizen which is the requirement.

158 posted on 02/06/2016 9:34:28 AM PST by moehoward
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To: Popman

It concerns me that some of us think that a man who is clearly subverting the constitution is in any way a constitutional conservative.


159 posted on 02/06/2016 9:35:02 AM PST by RC one ("...all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens" US v. WKA)
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To: Windflier

Hey. Here’s a grand idea.

How did the FOUNDERS define it?

Hint: Naturalization Act of 1790.


160 posted on 02/06/2016 9:39:25 AM PST by DrewsMum (If they wanted a conservative, they'd vote for one.)
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