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fhu ^ | 09/16/12 | fabian

[Elsie]

MORMONs and Masterites agreeing...

WONDERFUL!

[Elsie]

http://saintsalive.com/resourcelibrary/mormonism/the-great-pre-earth-council-of-mormon-gods

[Jeff Head]

Fabian, I believe in the Godhead, God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Ghost. I believe all are three distinct and seperate, but that all are also God.

God the Father sent His only begotten Son to this earth from their Heavenly abode where Christ Himself said he was with the Father even before the creation of this earth. The truh of both of them is witnessed to the heart of man by the Holy Ghost.

Mankind's only path back to the Father and salvation is through His Son, Jesus Christ and His Atonement, whom we worship as our Savior and our God, Son of the Father and perfectly obedient to Him and the keeper of His will. Who was resurrected and now has an immortal body that the disciples were allowed to touch and feel, as He said, "tocuh me, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have." The same Christ whom Stephen saw sitting on the right hand of God the Father when he, Stephen, was martyred and Saul of Tarsus stood by holding the cloaks of those who killed him.

[daniel1212]

The distinction is that believers are not ontologically one with the Father as preexisting with the same uncreated Divine nature as the Father, and creating things out of nothing, thus being uniquely the Son of God. And which Christ claimed and revealeed, (Jn. 5:18, 12:34b-46; 20:28) and thus are ascribed to Him titles, attributes and glory which are only ascribed to God. (http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/DEITYofCHRIST.html)

And rather than having to deny that Jesus is God in order to be saved, that is a mark of true faith. (Jn.1:1-3; 8:24; 12:34b-46; 1Jn. 5:20)

Yet believers possess the Spirit of Christ, and which occurs when one is born again, which is not a process, but a conversion event realized thru believing the word of truth, the gospel of salvation. (Acts 10:43-47; 15:8-9; Eph. 1:13; Gal. 4:6 1Pt. 1:3; Ja. 1:18)

And as the body of the believer is holy due to what it possesses, so it the Bible, and is not to be used as toilet paper or thrown away, because only the esoteric knowledge one get thru Masters meditation is holy.

[Jeff Head]

"...Spirit of Christ, which occurs when one is born again, which is not a process, but a conversion event realized thru believing the word of truth, the gospel of salvation."

I essentially agree with this, but would add that the one converting, as a part of that "event" also repents of his former self and accepts Christ's atonement completely in his/her life and thereby becomes a changed creature, who seeks to follow Christ, immulate Him, bring others to Him, and keep His commandments, despite the weakness of their own mortality.

To such an one, Christ promises forgiveness and salvation through His miraculous gift and atonement.

[Godzilla]

Hopefully some of them will before they meet their maker.

Well, my master is different than your "Masters"

[fabian]

Jesus said he always did his fathers will. That very fact and the word Father denotes a subservience to him. But God is not subservient to anyone! End of story...many slight mistranslations that people use to try and create a God out of the son. Big mistake.

[Jeff Head]

And yet God the Father has given His Son all that the Father hath. If that is tue, then the Son has all power, all glory, all knowledge, etc., just like the Father and is indeed on of the Godhead. A God himself. Christ, at the instruction of the Father, created the earth, and as Jehova He spoke with and was worshipped by the Old Testament Prophets, who prophesied of His coming. He told the Pharisees, "I am that, I Am." Meaning the same "I Am" who spoke with Abraham. But...always acting on behalf of, and at the express will of the Father. There is no misinterpretation here...simply a clear testament of who Christ was, and what He represented to mankind, And He told us all, in Matthew that we should, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." Which is His and Their goal for us. It is the full spectrum of waht atonement opened up to us. Cleansing us of sin so that we might return to their presence. Life eternal with the Father, with the ultimate aim, as Paul indicated in Romans that we, like Christ might be, "Heirs, heirs of God, and Joint heirs with Christ...". For, said he, "I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us." So, Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, Son of the Father, and part of the Godhead. And their desire for us, as Christ pointed out, is for us to become like Him...that we may be one, even as they are one.

[Springfield Reformer]

God serves no one?

Really?

You assume one who is superior does not serve one who is inferior, yet Jesus said this:

Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

Further, you know that Jesus washed his disciples feet, an act of servitude so low Peter at first refused it. This is the great mystery of God’s nature that is hiding in plain sight in the life of Christ. Do you remember what Jesus said when Philip asked him, “Show us the Father?” He said:

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

What can that mean? Both Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians agree that Jesus and the Father are not the same person. What can this mean then? I can think of nothing more reasonable that that Jesus means that the true nature of God is revealed to us in the person of Jesus, the only human ever to actually have that uncreated, eternal divine nature. (cf. John 1:1-3). And what is the nature of God we see in Jesus? The purest love, the most transcendent holiness, the ultimate power over created reality, the power to heal both body and soul and raise the dead back into life.

And what is the nature of divine love? Is it to lord it over weaker beings? Or do we have a better insight here:

1Cor 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, [5] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; [6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; [7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

No, the greatest mistake one can make about the nature of God is to miss the fact that He is love, that in being love itself, by nature he does not seek His own, that in calling us to worship him, he is calling us to emulate the servant’s heart he demonstrated for us in the person of Jesus, not to seek his own benefit, but to benefit us:

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

When you have seen Jesus serving us, loving us unto death itself, you have truly seen the Father’s heart.

Peace,

SR

[metmom]

Immanuel means “God with us” and the Jews only worshipped one God.

Besides, if Jesus is a separate god/entity, as in not the Father as He Himself stated that He was (Jesus said if you saw Him, you saw the Father and that He and the Father are one) then by stating that we go to God through Jesus automatically causes mankind to immediately break the frist commandment which is to have no other gods before God.

If Jesus is God Himself come in the flesh, then the first commmandment is not broken.

[editor-surveyor]

Look up the words “I Am” in a complete concordance.

They show that Christ was before all things including time itself, and that he created all things that exist.

Christ is the incarnate YHVH, come to Earth bodily as the Son, the only begotten Son.

Christ is “The Rock” wherever those words appear in the Bible.

[fabian]

I didn’t write that God serves no one...I wrote that he is not subservient...He is the pinnacle of the universe. He never said he does Jesus’s will, now did he? Of course not, Jesus was the son you guys are all confused. This godhead stuff is a bunch of mismatched gobbilty gook meant only to confuse people unwittingly.

[boatbums]

Thanks for this helpful list. It explains why it is so important, when talking about the Christian faith, to make sure we understand the words being used. It sounds like Masters and Joseph Smith - as well as other known cult leaders - have to finagle terms to try to "sound" right. Doublespeak at its finest!

Doublespeak is language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words. Doublespeak may take the form of euphemisms (e.g., "downsizing" for layoffs, "servicing the target" for bombing), making the truth less unpleasant, without denying its nature. It may also be deployed as intentional ambiguity, or reversal of meaning (for example, naming a state of war "peace"). In such cases, doublespeak disguises the nature of the truth, producing a communication bypass.

Doublespeak's origins are fuzzy because there is no explicit mention on where its primary concepts came from. However, doublespeak might possibly have certain concepts taken from George Orwell's book, Nineteen Eighty-Four. Although there is no mention of Doublespeak in Nineteen Eighty-Four, it has been argued that the term is a combination of two concepts - Doublethink and Newspeak which are original to his work. Comparisons have been made between Doublespeak and Orwell's descriptions on political speech from his essays Politics and the English Language in which "unscrupulous politicians, advertisers, religionists, and other doublespeakers of whatever stripe continue to abuse language for manipulative purposes". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak)

[daniel1212]

Indeed. I was contrasting that Scriptural conversion to Masters messiahship, which (Fabian apparently thought you were defending) is collective explained in various posts here, such as,

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2931985/posts?page=16#16

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2931985/posts?page=50#50

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2931985/posts?page=87#87

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2931985/posts?page=119#119

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2931985/posts?page=131#131

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2931985/posts?page=134#134

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2931985/posts?page=172#172

And if being in subjection means one cannot be of the same nature and essentially equal and “one” thereby, then women are not human, and are not one with their husbands. (1Cor. 11:3)

[daniel1212]

Good for you.

[daniel1212]

And those Masters seduces, handling the word of God deceitfully, most evidence they are the hypnotized souls.

[fabian]

you make no sense there...God does not serve his father! Good lord, you have lost your common sense man.

[fabian]

Someone where called me a liar or such for writing that for the first three centuries after Christ, he was NOT seen as God at all, but the son of God. This is from Wikipedia and other sources back it up. I was correct and the further away we got from the loving Jesus, the more the church became deceived and now does the deceiving for gullible types like you to help propagate the apostasy.

Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd century, is credited with using the words “Trinity”,[11] “person” and “substance”[12] to explain that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are “one in essence—not one in Person”.[13]

About a century later, in 325, the First Council of Nicaea established the doctrine of the Trinity as orthodoxy and adopted the Nicene Creed, which described Christ as “God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance (homoousios) with the Father”.

[Elsie]

And rather than having to deny that Jesus is God in order to be saved, that is a mark of true faith. (Jn.1:1-3; 8:24; 12:34b-46; 1Jn. 5:20)

Oh no; Danny boy; you got THAT wrong.

Ya see, our Prophets and learned men have spoken on this subject:

 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."

 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321

 

 

"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."

- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88

 

 

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"

- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)

 

 

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

 

 

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."

 - Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

 

 

 

"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"

 - Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670

 

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They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.

He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.

He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.

As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.

Who has made this so?

Have I?

Have this people?

Have the world?

No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.

If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.

If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.

Can you pass without his inspection?

No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.

They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?

They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?

 Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224

[boatbums]

Amen!

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. (Mark 13:31)