Posted on 10/04/2011 9:00:38 AM PDT by Pharmboy
One of the most important battlefields of the Revolutionary War is going to be excavated by archaeologists ahead of an EPA cleanup.
Back in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, General Electric dumped polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) into the Hudson River near Saratoga, New York. The dumping was banned in 1977 due to risks to public health, and the EPA has ordered GE to dredge up the affected silt from the river. Dredging destroys archaeological sites, though, and has already damaged Fort Edward, a British fort in the area dating to the mid 18th century. Archaeologists are working to excavate the stretch of river near Saratoga before the dredgers arrive.
Saratoga was on the frontier for much of the 18th century and played a large part in the French and Indian Wars (1755-1763) and the Revolutionary War (1775-1783). During the two battles of Saratoga in September and October of 1777, the American army stopped the British advance down the Hudson River Valley, then surrounded them and forced them to surrender. It was a major victory that led to the French coming into the war on the American side. French help was one of the deciding factors in an ultimate American victory, and the creation of the United States.
The Saratoga National Historical Park 9 miles south of Saratoga, New York, includes the battlefield, a visitor center, the restored country house of American General Philip Schuyler, a monument, and Victory Woods where the British surrendered on October 17, 1777.
Archaeologists hope to find artifacts from both wars and are currently looking for a British army camp.
Chasing Cornwallis out of the South would have had an effect, for sure, but the shock of his surrender is what convinced most in Britain to cut their losses and get out.
It's not "almost" right. It's completely right. I grew up in NY State. I went to college pretty close to "Saratoga." I've been attending the races there for 45 years. I know what I am talking about.
ML/NJ
Well, if you’ve been going to the track there for a while, you must remember the wonderful sliced roast beef sandwiches served up back in the 1970s. And the Big Red Spring.
I've been going since before there was a Big Red Spring or even a Big Red.
The food choices are MUCH better now (though they were better in 2010 than this year I think). As for roast beef, I remember something called the "Carving Board." It was okay, I guess. The Hatties Fried Chicken Sandwich now is a meal; and there are beaucoup other choices too.
(And BTW, I love the water!)
ML/NJ
Hey I was on your side.
However,
“that name derives from the local springs that were near the old town of Saratoga, now Schuylerville.”
As I said, Saratoga Springs - not Schuylerville AKA Old Saratoga - was FAMOUS for its very real springs (before racing).
BTW, “Big Red” is for MAN O’WAR, the 1st and only true Big Red, for which the spring was named. All others including Secretariat are imposters.
Anyone who thinks the spring at the track was named for Man o'War is truly delusional.
(FTR, I never saw Man o'War run. I did see Secretariat. He was good, to be sure, but I did see him lose three times.)
ML/NJ
Delusional? Really? Pray tell. It’s always my understanding it is a Man O’War reference.
http://www.racingmuseum.org/hall-of-fame/man-o-war.asp
Search “big red”.
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Maybe "delusional" was a bit strong. But for more than 50 years after Man o'War retired there was no Big Red Spring. It showed up two years (I think) after Secretariat retired. It was probably just a big coincidence,
ML/NJ
I believe it was there in 1966.
And that is what the HOF says about the spring - MOW.
You believe wrong.
Have a look at this picture. (Linked rather than posted in line because of the picture's size) There's a plaque on the structure that says it was moved there in 1975. (I was off by a year.)
And think about how stupid all those other sites would be that say the spring was named for both Man o'War and Secretariat if it had been there since 1966! Secretariat was foaled in 1970.
ML/NJ
I see many different bits of info. Many people DO repeat falsehoods, BTW. The HOF site is the best authority I’ve searched yet and it says it’s named for MOW.
This book (1994) has a caption for a pix I cannot see:
Notice the plaque in your pix says Excelsior PAVILLION, not spring. The pavillion itself was moved probably to cover it. The book above says the Big Red SPRING was drilled 1966 (but this is so far the only reference I found).
But, I never knew that Man 'O War was also known as Big Red, so I did certainly learn something.
http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2011/08/18/news/doc4e4dc13079ae1659931373.txt
“The red-and-white wooden Excelsior Spring Pavilion that surrounds the spring was built in 1859 and moved to its current location in 1975.”
c.1887 book, Page 49 (text) and 50 (pix having pavilion looking like Big Red).
(It’s fun doing some research....I tripped upon something in an old travel book (c1900?) referring to “Excelsior Geyser” in Yellowstone as the biggest in the world, and referred to the 1888 big eruption which is photographed on Wiki.)
MOW was the original, and others co-opted the nickname (although it is common for a pet name), but it was/is well known by racing fans.
All the solid evidence I’m googling (see prior) as well as casual racing talk on the racing forums over the decade seems to point to it being named for MOW - the HOF page (which better be correct), as well as books on the springs (built in ‘66 before there was a Secretariat) and so forth.
ML/NJ
Well, I remember my buddy pointing it out to me after Secretariat had been a favorite up there, but not seeing it before. If ml/nj and I are incorrect, I know I am surprise and so is he!
Bottom line is when was the spring built, and when was it named (which may be different). If they are before 1973, unquestionably it was meant for MOW (speaking of legends/favorites at Saratoga - MOW ran 4x at 2yo and 2x at 3yo as well as being purchased there, where Sec ran 3x and once, respectively).
Unless that spring is very young, I’m guessing as his pet name was co-opted from MOW, honoring Sec was tacked onto what already existed. I’ll bet the track people decided they’d include Sec in the honoring after the fact since he was seen as such a superhorse having the same pet name.
Phar Lap is the other well-known “Big Red”, 10 years after MOW.
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