Posted on 07/10/2011 7:04:06 PM PDT by Palter
Centuries after the Spanish Inquisition led to the forced conversion of Jews to Catholicism, an ultra-orthodox rabbinical court in Israel has issued a religious ruling that recognizes descendants from the insular island of Majorca as Jews.
The opinion focused narrowly on the Majorcan community of about 20,000 people known as chuetas and did not apply to descendants of Sephardic Jewish converts in mainland Spain or the broader diaspora of thousands of others who scattered to the Ottoman Empire and the Spanish colonies in South and North America.
The island, isolated until a tourist boom that began in the late 1960s, is a sociological preserve for descendants of Jews who formed an insular community of Catholic converts that intermarried through the centuries because of religious persecution and discrimination that barred them from holding certain positions in the Roman Catholic Church through the 20th century. Most carry the names of 15 families with ancestors who were tried and executed during the 17th century for practicing Judaism.
The religious court in Israel, led for more than 40 years by Rabbi Nissim Karelitz, sent another rabbi to the island in May to explore its warren of streets where a synagogue once stood and to examine the family trees of some of the chuetas who trace lineage back 500 years.
In a two-paragraph opinion — typical of the private rabbinical court that deals with matters of conversions, marriage conflicts and financial disputes — Rabbi Karelitz issued a statement that said because of the intermarriage patterns of the chuetas, “all those who are related to the former generations are Jews.”
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
It may have been Pope Paul's opinion. But it was NOT the opinion of the Inquisition in Spain or Portugal. Indeed, if anything, the POINT of the Inquisition was to ferret out, try, and frequently torture insincere converts. Not surprisingly, that population consisted overwhelmingly of Jews who had been forcibly converted, or who had been raised by parents who were forcibly converted.
“You use the CE/BCE usage for EXACTLY the same reason the PC crowd does.”
Actually, no. It is done because Judaism forbids the acceptance, or the belief in other deities. Nor, are we to worship any representation/image of G-D, as that would be idolatry. “Thou shalt not make any graven image.” If you worship at a statue of Jesus, then you are worshipping at an idol. That is an abomination before HaShem’s eyes. Remember the 10 Commandments? To use “B.C.” would be participating in those beliefs.
Jews were commanded by HaShem to be separate, and not accept the ways of the pagans and other nations. “Be ye separate.” And, that is why Jews do not use it.
........No? Then who did these sadistic acts? Hindus? Buddhists?.......Little green men in flying saucers, the Martians?????
Christians did them. Christian mobs, Christian kings, Christian clergy in some cases. Did you think I was disputing that?
And please, no more of the “They were just following orders”......enough already......
Who said that??? I never said that nor would I.
It may make you and your fellow Anti-Semitic revisionists better
That is a disgusting libel. As I've said on this thread, I *married into a Jewish family*. I'm well aware of the sensitivities here, but I'm not going to give bad history a pass simply to placate someone's sensibilities. ChicagoHebrew had the decency to acknowledge the factual correctness of what we said about the jurisdiction of the Inquisition, even as he took issue with the implications of it. That's the kind of discussion we *should* be having here...because that kind of discussion helps us figure out what happened, what went wrong, and how to behave toward each other today.
But here’s the real question, and the only one that really matters in all of this:“How to you think G-D actually feels about it?”
I believe in a God of unutterable love who felt with a burning heart the suffering of each and every Spanish Jew and Converso--who loved each and every one of them more than they even loved themselves. I believe that every single needless cruelty inflicted on them by Christians earned its practitioner either a one way trip to Hell or a suitable atonement for it in this life or the next.
You wrote:
“If you can make that statement, then I know one of 2 things:
You are a liar, or, you have a serious comprehension problem.”
That’s all you got left: false accusations.
Remember: “You, of course, present no evidence for your claims and you directly contradict BN - the very book you laid claim to.”
You wrote:
“Actually, no. It is done because Judaism forbids the acceptance, or the belief in other deities.”
Jesus is not another deity. He is of the same spiritual substance as His Father, YHWH. You use CE and BCE for EXACTLY the same reasons the PC crowd do.
“Nor, are we to worship any representation/image of G-D, as that would be idolatry. “Thou shalt not make any graven image.” If you worship at a statue of Jesus, then you are worshipping at an idol. That is an abomination before HaShem’s eyes. Remember the 10 Commandments? To use “B.C.” would be participating in those beliefs.”
False. B.C. stands for “Before Christ”. In itself it is not an acknowledgement of Christ’s divinity. Anno Domini is different. Once again we see how little you know.
“Jews were commanded by HaShem to be separate, and not accept the ways of the pagans and other nations. “Be ye separate.” And, that is why Jews do not use it.”
Except that we are not pagans and Jesus was most definitely not a pagan either. Since Jesus is God it is not wrong to honor Him.
I am not disputing that was the point of the Inquisition in Spain and Portugal. That’s what the Inquisition did...ferret out heresy.
And I am not a historian of the era, but I’m a bit wary about a claim that *most* Jews were forcibly converted, especially since forcing a person to accept Baptism has *always* been against the canons of the Church. If you have hard numbers on that, I’d certainly like to see them.
I know what B.C. is. The post was about why Jews do not use B.C.
Judaism does not believe in “Jesus Christ.” To Jews, he is indeed, another deity.
To you, he is not. But to a Jew, he is.
We do not believe Jesus is HaShem. To Jews he is not G-D. So, Jews do not use B.C.
To Jews, and according to Jewish law, to use B.C. would indeed be such an acknowledgement.
And if you worship at a statue of deity, no matter which one, that makes you an idolator. And that, in Judaism, is an abomination before HaShem. If you believe in the 10 Commandments, and you make a graven image representing G-D, or worship at one, then, you are committing an abomination before G-D.
How little I know?.... Really?....Are you now presuming to teach Judaism? Are you presuming to tell us that you are an authority on Torah Halacha?
You wrote:
“I know what B.C. is. The post was about why Jews do not use B.C.”
And it’s still wrong.
“Judaism does not believe in “Jesus Christ.””
Jews do not believe Jesus existed?
“To Jews, he is indeed, another deity.”
So, you are saying Jews believe Jesus is divine? Notice how you did not use the phrase “false deity”?
“To you, he is not. But to a Jew, he is.”
Actually, no, I believe He is divine. You too are saying He is as well. Your apparent command of logic is almost as bad as your command of English.
“We do not believe Jesus is HaShem.”
Which would still not have anything to do with “B.C.”. Also, since Christ made the era common (i.e. Common Era) everytime someone uses C.E. and B.C.E. it is still a reference to Christ.
“To Jews he is not G-D. So, Jews do not use B.C.”
So is the Common Era God? After all, you’re saying you don’t use B.C. - which does not ever mention God nor does it say Christ is God - because you don’t believe Christ is God. Thus, logically, if you use Common Era, you must believe Common Era is God. You worship a dating system?
“To Jews, and according to Jewish law, to use B.C. would indeed be such an acknowledgement.”
R-I-G-H-T, so using “Common Era” must be an acknowledgement that Common Era is God.
“And if you worship at a statue of deity,..”
Worship AT? Please explain how someone can “worship at” something? Since you - using your own logic - worship a dating system you probably really believe people can “worship at” something.
“no matter which one, that makes you an idolator. And that, in Judaism, is an abomination before HaShem. If you believe in the 10 Commandments, and you make a graven image representing G-D, or worship at one, then, you are committing an abomination before G-D.”
None of which has anything to do with “B.C.” since it is not a statue and it is not worshipped.
“How little I know?.... Really?....Are you now presuming to teach Judaism?”
Nope. I’ll just let you make how little you know and understand clear in post after post.
“Are you presuming to tell us that you are an authority on Torah Halacha?”
Buddy, you don’t appear to be an authority about much of anything.
“Buddy, you don’t appear to be an authority about much of anything.”
Mmmmmmm...... maybe. But one thing I do know is an Anti-Semitic Revisionist with an agitated need to antagonize, when I see one.
"Actually it’s not “my side is always right”, vlad, pontiac and claud pointed out that this happened, but the image of this has been exaggerated."Don't know about others, but vlad clearly has an axe to grind. Just read the last 50 comments on this thread. I do remember him on one of the old threads defending the burning of heretics by the catholic church. That it had every right to punish apostasy with death and so on.
>> You use the CE/BCE usage for EXACTLY the same reason the >> PC crowd does.
Pray tell what “the reason” is. What are you insinuating?
Which is why I rarely come here anymore. Time better spent davening and studying Torah than attempting to be a light to those who thrive living in the dark.
B'H
Natural,
What is referred to as “The Holocaust”, or HaShoah, the horrific act of genocide with the intention of exterminating the entire population of Jewish people, is but one of many attempts by many, over thousands of years, to wipe the Jewish people off the face of the earth. Yes, no question that massacres and acts of genocide took place against a variety of people. The genocide of the Armenians by the Turks is enough to make anyone sick.
However, there is not one single group, world wide, and in the history of that world, that has been singled out for persecution and extermination, as many times, as the Jewish people. That is a fact. And, in approx. 90 different countries. That too, is a fact.
We find it incredulous, in view of this history, that anyone would even have the nerve to say that we are playing a “victim card”, or that these events “were not that bad”, or that it “never happened” or attempt to revise documented history....And, we do know where such sentiments come from - pure hatred.
When people stop trying to kill us off, convert us to their beliefs, or prevent us from living ours, then, and only then, will we have no need to continually remind the world that they need to change these barbaric, sick minded behaviors, and the hatred that spawn such evil.
Until then, you will not stop hearing it, nor will we stop reminding everyone of it. To deny what happened means that you have not changed, you have not learned, and you are quite capable of doing it again.
So, when we say “The Holocaust”, we are referring to the evil that was, once again, perpetrated against the Jewish people. We will never be intimidated into silence about it either. We have no shame in vocalizing it.
The shame is upon those who perpetrated it, agreed with it, and those who stood by, allowed it, while saying nothing. It is also upon those who try to deny it, revise it and lessen it. It is written that HaShem will curse them, and has a very special place in Hell for such people.
“I will Bless those that Bless You, and I will Curse those who Curse you.”
Yup, however look around at the rest of the world in the 1500s and it sucked pretty much the same elsewhere.
If you look at it through today's lenses we all agree that it was horrible, utterly. Yet it was not the big monster made out to be.
During the war, Franco remained silent in regard to Jewish matters and Spain became an unlikely escape route and haven for thousands of Jews. They were mainly from Western Europe, fleeing deportation to concentration camps from occupied France, but also Sephardic Jews from Eastern Europe, especially in Hungary. Trudy Alexy refers to the "absurdity" and "paradox of refugees fleeing the Nazis' Final Solution to seek asylum in a country where no Jews had been allowed to live openly as Jews for over four centuries."interestingThroughout World War II, Spanish diplomats of the Franco government, as well as diplomats from Switzerland, Sweden, Portugal and the Vatican, extended their protection to Eastern European Jews, especially in Hungary. Jews claiming Spanish ancestry were provided with Spanish documentation without being required to prove their case and either left for Spain or survived the war with the help of their new legal status in occupied countries.
.....Spain began giving citizenship to Sephardic Jews in Greece, Hungary, Bulgaria, and Romania; many Ashkenazic Jews also managed to be included, as did some non-Jews. The Spanish head of mission in Budapest, Ángel Sanz Briz, may have saved thousands of Ashkenazim in Hungary by granting them Spanish citizenship, placing them in safe houses, and teaching them minimal Spanish so they could pretend to be Sephardim, at least to someone who did not know Spanish. The Spanish diplomatic corps was performing a balancing act: Alexy conjectures that the number of Jews they took in was limited by how much German hostility they were willing to engender
and I never knew that Franco told Shicklegruber that...
True -- and the term "Phoenician" is what we Indo-Europeans call them (an exonym) while they called themselves Kanaan or Canaanites -- a related Semitic population to the Israelites
I think the only test for Judaism that is verified (afaik) is the one for the cohen genes, right? They used that to trace the ethiopian jews and the bene-israelies from Maharashtra in India i think
if we're talking about the past, then it is the dead past with old sins and errors. The only times I've read him "defending" this was when he pointed out that in England both sides did their persecutions...where he said Thankfully the days of ... persecution of Catholics ended long ago... They no longer burn our convents or attack our churches as they once did. -- at the same time he pointed out that it was the way in which the secular governments meted out punishment and heresy was then a secular crime as it associated itself with treason against the state.
Also do note it is not on the same level to compare the atrocities of the 40s with that of the Inqusition. Even in sheer numbers —> 3,000 were killed over a 300 YEAR period, that’s bad, but none of those were Jews, they were converts and this was 2% of those accused and yes, they have a TRIAL. You may argue this was not as fair as a modern day trial, yet 98% were released and people actually preferred to go to the inquisition trials rather than the state ones (lesser of two evils). So, no, the two events cannot be spoken of as being anywhere on par.
You wrote:
“Mmmmmmm...... maybe. But one thing I do know is an Anti-Semitic Revisionist with an agitated need to antagonize, when I see one.”
Oh, there it is: when all else fails, call someone an anti-semite. Sorry, but that is not only not true, but it makes you look like a fool. Telling the truth about the inquisition is not anti-semitic. The one has nothing to do with the other. Thanks for tacitly admitting that you can’t make an argument about the topic at hand.
Read the thread.
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