Posted on 04/30/2011 12:49:21 AM PDT by djf
Lately, we have been bombarded by various people trying to say what is was/wasn't that Vattel had to say, and whether his opinions mattered
or were even known to the founders and early America.
So I did a bit of research.
Emmerich De Vattel was born 1714 of Swiss parentage. At an early age he became interested in literature and philosophy. Now there are much better and detailed biographies on the web, so I won't bore everybody with all the details I read. Suffice to say he spent many years with positions provided by the courts (the royal courts) and composed a number of works.
He was deeply influenced by an earlier work called "The Law of Nations" by Christian Wolfe, the problem with the earlier work being that it had been composed in Latin and was not a work for general use.
He (Vattel) completed his first edition of "Le Droit des Gens, ou Principes de la Loi Naturelle", or what we now call "The Law of Nations" in 1758.
It was a two volume work.
He died in 1767, in what I believe was France, though I haven't verified it yet.
Now the arguments about using Vattel as a reference have taken a couple forms. First, there seems to be an argument that he was perhaps a more obscure reference at that time and was not internationally accepted.
Another argument is that he never used the exact term "natural born citizen", so that what he was speaking of does not apply.
A little study of history show that both arguments fail miserably.
Vattel was aware of what was happening in America before his death. At least in terms of the settling of America.
At the end of Chapter XVIII, Occupation of a Territory by a Nation, he says "However we can't help but admire the moderation of the English Puritans who were the first to settle New England. A;though they bore with them a charter from their sovereign, they bought from the savages the lands they wished to occupy. Their praiseworthy example was followed by William Penn and the colony of Quakers that he conducted into Pennsylvania"
Vattels work was known in Europe and to the founders that had traveled there. There are a number of historical references that prove that which the reader can find on his own.
In 1775, eight years after his passing, Charles Dumas, a Swiss living in Holland, brought out a new edition and sent 3 copies to Benjamin Franklin. Franklin wrote "It came to us in good season, when the circumstances of a rising State make it necessary frequently to consult the Law of Nations". This was in December, 1775.
The founding fathers were aware of and impressed by Vattels mentions of New England and Pennsylvania, and took it to heart. The work became an almost instant classic in pre-revolutionary Ameria.
By 1780 his work was considered a classic and was a textbook at the best universities.
So did the founders really know of the work?
They knew of it enough so that it is quoted in Supreme Court decisions even before the Constitution was written or ratified. In Miller v. The Cargo of the Ship Resolutions, the court said "Vattel, a celebrated writer on the laws of nations, says, 'when two nations make war a common cause, they act as one body, and the war is called a society of war; they are so clearly and intimately connected, that the Jus Postliminii takes place among them, as among fellow subjects.'" This decision was by the Federal Court of Appeals, Aug, 1781. Cited as 2 US 1 or 2 Dall 1
We see that not only was it known to the founders, it was already being used in the universities and quoted as operative law in the fledgling courts of the United States justice system.
So. What exactly did he say?
First, anyone who reads the item whether translated or in the original French has to admit he never used the exact phrase "natural born citizen".
But!!! On reading what he said, the wording and the context, there can be no doubt at all of EXACTLY what he meant.
I shall here cite the section in English and in the original Francais.
The section is from Chapter XIX, entitled "One's Country and various matters relating to it". Sec. 212, Citizens and Natives. It is on pps.
87 of the english translation.
"The members of a civil society are it's citizens. Bound to that society by certain duties and subject to it's authority, they share equally in the advantages it offers. Its natives are those who were born in the country of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot maintain and perpetuate itself except by the children of it's citizens, these children naturally take on the status of their fathers and enter upon all the latters rights. The society is presumed to desire this as the necessary means of its self-preservation, and it is justly to be inferred that each citizen, upon entering into the society, reserves to his children the right to be members of it. The country of a father is therefore that of his children, and they become true citizens by merely tacit consent. We shall see presently whether, when arrived at the age of reason, they may renounce their right and the duty they owe to the society in which they are born. I REPEAT THAT IN ORDER TO BELONG TO A COUNTRY ONE MUST BE BORN THERE OF A FATHER WHO IS A CITIZEN; for if one is born of foreign parents, that land will only be the place of one's birth, and not one's country."
(the above is from: Les droit des gens, Translation of the 1758 edition, Charles G. Fenwick, published Carnegie Institute of Washington,
Washington, 1916.
En Francais.
Les citoyens sont les membres de la Societe Civile; Lies a cette Societe pars certains devoirs, & formie a son Autotiteil particiant avec egalite a les avantages. Les NATURELS, ou INDIGENES, sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de Parens Citoyens. La Societe ne pouvant se soutenir & se perpetuer que par les enfans des Citoyens; ces enfans y suivent naturellement la conditionn de leurs Peres, & entrent dans tous leurs droits. La Societe est cenflee le vouloir ainfi; par une suite de ce qu'elle doit a la propre confervation; & l'on presume de droit que chacque Citoyen, en entrent dans la Societe; reserve a les enfans le droit d'en etre membres. La Patrie des Peres est dons celles des enfans & ceux-ci deviennent de veritables Citoyens, par leur simple consentement tacite. nous verrons bien-tot; si parvenus a l'age de raison, ils peuvent renoncer a leur droit, & ce-qu'ils doivent a la Societe dans laquelle ils sont nes. Je dis que pour etre d'un pays, IL FAUT ETRE ne D'UN PERE CITOYEN; car si vous y etes ne d'un Etranger, ce pays sera seulement le lieu de votre naissance, sans etre votre Patrie"
Note: The above is from the 1758 edition. As with early American English, it was common to write an "S" as an "f". I have tried with my limited knowledge of French to make the corrections, and think this is pretty darn close to the original.
Another note: Vattel uses the phrase "Les Naturelles ou Indigenes" which pretty much translates to "The naturals or natives"
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Now I doubt anyone can read the above and not know EXACTLY what the founders meant by "natural born citizen". They wanted someone who, in Vattels words, "Belong(ed) to the Country, which means a person born on the soil of parents who were citizens, at the very least born on the soil OF A FATHER who IS A CITIZEN!
If Obama was born in Hawaii, were both his parents Citizens? No. Was Obamas FATHER a citizen? No.
Does Obama "Belong to the Country?"
Vattel, and the founders of our great Republic, would have to say no.
Does anyone with authority to do anything about it care - no.
Yes, guilt by association is a truth, a concept proven by ALL of human history.
Thanks!
Reading some of the references there.
Man I wish those dudes had gotten their F’s and S’s straight.
Wazzup with the f/s business? I never figured that out...
You’ve missed the real history around the term natural born citizen. And Vattel was writing about international law, and admits it doesn’t apply to how England handled things.
I suggest reading this 1844 decision on what was meant by NBC:
http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/Lynch_v_Clarke_1844_ocr.pdf
“It is an established maxim, received by all political writers, that every person owes a natural allegiance to the government of that country in which he is born. Allegiance is defined to be a tie, that binds the subject to the state, and in consequence of his obedience, he is entitled to protection… The children of aliens, born in this state, are considered as natural born subjects, and have the same rights with the rest of the citizens.”
Zephaniah Swift, A system of the laws of the state of Connecticut (1795)
“As the President is required to be a native citizen of the United States…. Natives are all persons born within the jurisdiction and allegiance of the United States.”
James Kent, COMMENTARIES ON AMERICAN LAW (1826)
“Allegiance is nothing more than the tie or duty of obedience of a subject to the sovereign under whose protection he is, and allegiance by birth is that which arises from being born within the dominions and under the protection of a particular sovereign. Two things usually concur to create citizenship: first, birth locally within the dominions of the sovereign, and secondly, birth within the protection and obedience, or, in other words, within the allegiance of the sovereign….That the father and mother of the demandant were British born subjects is admitted. If he was born before 4 July, 1776, it is as clear that he was born a British subject. If he was born after 4 July, 1776, and before 15 September, 1776 [the date the British occupied New York], he was born an American citizen, whether his parents were at the time of his birth British subjects or American citizens. Nothing is better settled at the common law than the doctrine that the children even of aliens born in a country while the parents are resident there under the protection of the government and owing a temporary allegiance thereto are subjects by birth.”
Justice Story, concurring opinion,Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 3 Pet. 99, 155,164. (1830)
“The country where one is born, how accidental soever his birth in that place may have been, and although his parents belong to another country, is that to which he owes allegiance. Hence the expression natural born subject or citizen, & all the relations thereout growing. To this there are but few exceptions, and they are mostly introduced by statutes and treaty regulations, such as the children of seamen and ambassadors born abroad, and the like.”
Leake v. Gilchrist, 13 N.C. 73 (N.C. 1829)
“Therefore every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution, and entitled to all the rights and privileges appertaining to that capacity.”
William Rawle, A View of the Constitution of the United States (1829)
6. Upon principle, therefore, I can entertain no doubt, but that by the law of the United States, every person born within the dominions and allegiance of the United States, whatever were the situation of his parents, is a natural born citizen.
Lynch v Clarke, 1844
US law has never followed Vattel on citizenship, nor would Vattel have expected it to. Vattel wrote on international law, and made the point that what he was writing didn’t hold true in 1758 England.
Scroll to page 254 click it...begin reading at Kin to end of page you will see natural,native.
Do not let our Mr Rogers discourage you. His agenda is distorting Vattel and the meaning of natural born citizen.
I’m not discouraged.
I have to admit a great deal of amusement about something, though.
The constant references to the English policies regarding natural born subjects. And yes, I have Blackstone and have read the references but not like in the last month or so.
They did it this way in England.... They did it this way in England... They did it this way in England...
Yawn...
They did alot of things in England. Thing is, we didn’t agree with them. That’s why we had that Revolution thingy!
;-)
Natural born citizen had a meaning prior to being written into the Constitution. It is not a term pulled out of thin air. At Independence, every natural born subject of the English colonies, now in the independent US, became a natural born citizen, and the various states started recognizing that by changing the wording of their laws and by legal decisions.
Vattel WAS used heavily by the Founders - for international law. Not for citizenship inside the US, and not for the meaning of natural born citizen.
The quotes I provided weren’t from Obamabots. They came from legal cases and legal commentators in the early 1800s.
We did not rebel against England over a dispute concerning citizenship. The American Revolution wasn’t about adopting citizenship by parentage!
The question is, "What would a reasonable person living at the time of ratification have understood these words to mean?" The Constitution, with the phrase "natural-born citizen," was ratified in 1788. de Vattel never used the English phrase "natural-born citizen," for he wrote in French, and not everyone translated "les naturels ou indigènes" as "natural-born citizen."
But the British had long defined the phrase "natural-born subject," and a reasonable person living at the time of ratification was a "natural-born subject" of the British Crown until 1783. He would've used the English common law definition of "natural-born subject" applied to "natural-born citizen," not one way of translating a Swiss legalist's writing that doesn't even contain the phrase "natural-born citizen."
Now you are just being silly. Nobody said such a thing.
If we're conservatives, then we can't pick and choose a definition that we like. We have to answer the question, "What would a reasonable person living at the time of ratification have understood these words to mean?"
You really want to argue that a reasonable person in 1788 would've used de Vattel's definition of "les naturels ou indigènes" over the English common law definition of "natural-born subject" when defining "natural-born citizen"?
“The English wrote in English (duh)”, “So well did Madison(father of the Constitution) master the universal language[Latin]of learning that forty years later he wrote long footnotes correcting the English translation of Latin works by the international law authorities ...Grotius, Pufendorf and Vattel.” “Madison” by Ketcham
It does not need to contain the exact phrase.
He used the word “naturels”.
Les NATURELS, ou INDIGENES, sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de Parens Citoyens.
From my rusty memories of French.
Les naturels, ou indigenes, (The naturals or natives) sont ceux qui sont nes (are those who are BORN!!!! GET IT??? BORN!!! NOT HATCHED!!!!) dans le pays, (in the country) de Parens Citoyens (of parents who are citizens).
So.
The naturals or natives are those who are born in the country of citizen parents.
(Naturals) who are (born) who are (citizens) because of their parents citizenship.
You can try all you want but you cannot change what he said.
And you cannot change this. Vattel has either been directly cited or used as a reference in 149 Supreme Court cases.
(that list only includes the USSC decisions from 1 Dallas 1 up to 2005, I need to download the most recent US reports)
The Constituton does provide for the impeachment of members of the SCOTUS. It also provides for the impeachment of Senators, members of the House of Representatives, and other members of the Fedeearl Government. The Constitution also provides for the People to elect officials who are capable of conducting impeachments and Grand Jury hearings. As a grandmother was oft heard to say, can’t never did.
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