Italian group claims to debunk Shroud of Turin

It would certainly be a cherry on top of Peter’s experience if there were an image to be seen at that time. In fact, that would constitute such a wow moment one wonders why no gospel writer said there was an image to be seen. Things like stones rolling away from cave mouths due to earthquakes are comparatively quite trivial.

I guess it is one of those things you either believe or you don’t, but it is not necessary to believe in the shroud for our salvation. Thank goodness for that. But I still think it’s pretty cool.

Thank you, Swordmaker. I can’t remember where I heard it, but I thought there was some physical description of Christ given somewhere. I thought it said He resembled His mother, was arresting in appearance, had gold highlights in His hair and light eyes (like many Jews living in that area at the time) and was tall (again, for the time). It said something about how all who looked on Him were drawn to Him and that He was physically compelling or attractive.

I don’t know if it was a story told by one of my old nun teachers, the vision of a saint, or if I read it somewhere myself.

It’s always just been my own feeling that, after all the signs and symbols God sent so we could recognize Jesus when He came, God wouldn’t send a nondescript savior. He’d send one who drew your eye, so you could then hear His word. I see it as another way of reaching out to us to try to gather as many souls as possible at that time.

I have enjoyed the images posted on the Shroud threads.

Wonderful information, Swordmaker! How did you learn this about how shrouds were made? I would like to read a book on this subject.

I would think that wealthy Joseph of Arimanthea would provide a fine linen shroud for Christ’s burial; possibly the one he had in readiness for his own death, like the tomb he had ready.

It just makes sense, don’t you think? There is so much about the Shroud that is amazing. Arguments against it seem so weak to me.

Sue Benford died a few months ago........a real tragedy; a great loss. An incredibly talented “amateur” researcher. Ray Rogers picked up on her work on “invisible weaving” and wrote THE definitive paper on this prior to his death.

The C-14 testing was flawed from top to bottom for a simple reason: they tested fibrils from a rewoven portion of the Shroud. Microscopic photography makes this so obvious, as well.

He was between 5’11” and 6’1”....we split the difference and call it 6’.

By the way..........makes him VERY tall for that era.

If something like olive oil or seed oils, perhaps biodegradation by microbes eventually took care of it.

Olive Oil might be the oil... but it would leave one smelling like a salad ;^)>

More likely an animal fat oil of some kind. Wealthier people would have used something commercial.

The Egyptians used unguents made of animal and vegetable fats. It's probable that was what was traded around the Mediterranean area for such purposes. I just saw the Tutankhamun exhibit at the De Young Museam in San Francisco today and Tut had numerous unguent and oil jars buried with him along with unguent applicators.

Source, please?

What I wrote was a summary of what I have learned from a lifetime of reading on this subject, attending scholarly symposia on the Shroud of Turin where papers were presented, plus discussions with a Conservative Jewish Rabbi on burial customs of the early Jews.

However, here are some sources that might help you:

This one is sort of a popular summary about how the body was handled, placement in the tomb and what was done after a period of decomposition...

Jewish Burial Customs in the First Century: Sidebar to "Ossuary Inscriptions from the Caiaphas Tomb"

This article mentions the bindings on hands and feet in Lazurus' burial:

'Lord, He Stinketh': Jewish Burial Practices, Mourning Customs and Rabbinic Theology in John 11

A lot of my information comes from discussions with my Conservative Rabbi friend who drew on the Talmud for rules on burials. There is also another ancient Jewish text he consulted in our researches called the Tractate Semahot, that deals completely with burial and mourning laws. I figured that primary sources are best... but I can't read Hebrew or Aramaic.

However, a good discussion of such practices is found in a book I read many years ago when the Rabbi recommended it to me. I have since donated to my church's library.

The book is: The Jewish People in the First Century: Historial Geography, Political History, Social, Cultural and Religious Life and Institutions, Edited by Shmuel Safrai, Translated from Hebrew to English by Menahem Stern, pub. 1988.

You can read partially about the 1st Century Jewish Burial practices in this Amazon excerpt from the book. which I was pleasantly surprised to find available when I did a search for it just now. Unfortunately, is skips pages with a lot of interesting information but it is the best I can provide for this really heavy tome... unless you want to spend $82 to buy it. In particular note the following sentence from the first paragraph in the section on Death, Burial, and Mourning on page 775, which provides proof positive of the binding "around the head" was intended to keep the mouth closed:

"Care was taken to ensure that the body did not become distorted: this was done by binding the cheeks, in order to keep the mouth closed, and by closing the orifices of the body to prevent swelling."

And, finally, a Biblical source from the King James version of the Bible— John 11:43-44

"43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Note that "bound about" can mean either around horizontally, or it can mean the jaw binding—under the chin, around the face, tied over the crown— mentioned earlier, to keep the mouth closed in death. Archaeologists report finding remnants of this jaw binding in graves of the period. A large Shroud is not mentioned here because Lazarus was a probably poor man and his family could not afford the considerable expense for a large sheet to cover his body while it decomposed (destroying the cloth with it).

I found this when I was searching for some current links for you... it is an interesting read and goes into quite a bit of detail about Jewish burial for executed criminals.

Jewish Burial Traditions and the Resurrection of Jesus by Craig A. Evans

I hope this helps, Cloverfarm.

I think you might want to revise that 6' estimate. Read the following article:

Computerized Anthropometric analysis of the Man of the Turin Shroud
by Giulio Fanti°, Emanuela Marinelli+ Alessandro Cagnazzo°, ©1999

The conclusion of this study, which is pretty exhaustive, is that "The height of the Man of the Shroud turned out to be 174±2 cm."

That's a range of 67.7 inches at the low end to 69.3 inches at the high end. 174 cm is approximately 68.5 inches. Five feet, eight and a half inches tall.

The average American Male is 5' 9.4" tall... 69.4"

Another anthropomorphic study of the Shroud's image concluded the Man was 70.5 inches tall... 5' 10 1/2" tall. A survey of male skeletons of 1st Century Jewish burials, found that the average male was 5' 8 3/8" tall. Examples were found that were over 6 feet.

Freeper Swordmaker has addressed this issue on another thread.

" See above: Linen strips probably did bind the ankles and wrists as well as the jaw closed. As to the large sheet like shroud, The King James Bible states:

* In Mathew 27: 59 " And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,"
in the original Greek: "59και λαβων το σωμα ο ιωσηφ ενετυλιξεν αυτο [εν] σινδονι καθαρα". . .
the word in bold is "sindoni." In English, a Shroud or a large Sheet.

* In Mark 15: 46 "And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre."
Again in the original Greek: "και αγορασας σινδονα καθελων αυτον ενειλησεν τη σινδονι και εθηκεν αυτον εν μνηματι ο ην λελατομημενον εκ πετρας και προσεκυλισεν λιθον επι την θυραν του μνημειου."
There's that troublesome word again: "sindoni," a shroud or a large sheet.

* In John 19: 40 "Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury."
Back to the original Greek: "ελαβον ουν το σωμα του ιησου και εδησαν αυτο οθονιοις μετα των αρωματων καθως εθος εστιν τοις ιουδαιοις ενταφιαζειν"
This time the word in bold is "Othonia." In English: Grave Clothes, a more generic term for all of the cloths used in the burial. Othonia would be inclusive of the bindings used on the wrists, ankles, and Jaw, and a shroud or modesty cloths.

As for Strong's Concordance, it was compiled at a time when the Egyptian mummies and their burial practices were all the rage. Many thought that all middle eastern burials were handled in a similar fashion. As a result, the interpretations of the original Greek were distorted by that awareness of Egyptian burial practices. It is not Biblical. If you note, the definition of the Greek words "entulisso and eneileo" are fixated on the more extreme meanings rather than the more common original Greek meaning of "to enwrap," which is easily understood if you place the body on a cloth and pull the rest over the head and down over the feet... you enwrap it. However, given the period, and the state of scientific archaeology, this is understandable. Archaeology was concentrated on Egypt and that is what the saw in Egyptian burials: tight wrappings entwined around the body binding it. At the time Strongs was compiles, no serious archaeology had been done to unearth 1st Century Jewish burials in Jerusalem to find out just exactly HOW Jews were buried. It was prohibited by the Muslims who were in control of that area.

You, and the skeptics page that you cut and paste this entire post from, choose to ignore the clear meaning of the word "σινδονι", sindoni, which is quite explicitly a large cloth, which the synoptic Gospels of Matthew and Mark both use in the original Greek. They also choose to ignore the plurailty of Grave Clothes which is another meaning to the word "οθονιοις ," othonia, plural and colloquially used for the multiple cloths in a set of grave clothes used for Jewish Burial."

Sword, courtesy *PING* to you.

Cheers!

Now that's creative... as well as sacrilegious. The Holy Beach Towel of Miami Beach.