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"We have socialized institutions for mail, police, military, etc" (need a good response here)
August 21, 2009 | Me

Posted on 08/21/2009 8:35:36 AM PDT by St. Louis Conservative

Had an argument with a friend, and he said that "we have socialized institutions for national defense, police, fire, and mail delivery.....if government is good enough for that, why can't they provide healthcare?"

Obviously I knew it was a dumb statement, but I struggled to come up with a solid, reasoned, and strong rebuttal right away.

Anyone got any good ideas?


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Health/Medicine; Miscellaneous; Society
KEYWORDS: healthcare; obamacare; philosophy; socialism
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To: RushIsMyTeddyBear
"We already HAVE ‘socialized medicine’ in the US. VA, Medicare, Medicaid. They need auditing and reorganizing."

Also, do not forget that the US Government provides health care (if you want to call it that) to the Indians within the USA.

It's the Indian Health Service, and the "service" it provides to Indians ought to make anyone scared of a government-run health care system.

VERY scared.

41 posted on 08/21/2009 9:10:46 AM PDT by chs68
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To: St. Louis Conservative

I would point them to two gov’t run health systems - the VA and the Indian Health Services - both are ugly examples of where the gov’t ends up with health care. IHS in particular is so broken it makes you sick to even look at it.
Push your friend to investigate or do it yourself and have a nice check sheet of facts.
Start with the saying on the reservation is “don’t get sick after June” - they run out of money by May each year - that means that medical items meant for one use - get re-used, etc...


42 posted on 08/21/2009 9:12:29 AM PDT by francisr (bring it to them)
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To: chs68

I forgot about that! Another abject gubmint failure.


43 posted on 08/21/2009 9:12:34 AM PDT by RushIsMyTeddyBear ('Always love your country — but never trust your government!' ~ Robert Novak (RIP))
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To: St. Louis Conservative

Police and Army are government DUTIES.

even so these socialized institutions are not socialist because they DEPEND ON THE FREE MARKET FOR THEIR EXISTENCE.

The army protects the free market. Without the free market the army is a tool of oppression not protection.


44 posted on 08/21/2009 9:14:31 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: St. Louis Conservative

Socialized police system-

Watch what happens when riots erupt over all this garbage.

Watch how Obuma ‘rations’ an overwhelming Police force against Patriots.. Watch how he will ‘ration’ endless supplies of chemical weapons against Americans.


45 posted on 08/21/2009 9:18:34 AM PDT by Blu By U
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To: St. Louis Conservative

The only thing that the federal government does really, really well is kill people and break things. Our military is first-rate.

Other than that, most government programs are failures. We are at the end of our rope in government failure with a $2 trillion deficit this year, weak Treasury auctions, and the looming insolvency of Medicare and Social Security.

There is no more money. There can be no more socialist hand-outs. Everyone must pay their own bills. Pay your own bills. What a concept to the 52% of the American electorate who thought they were getting something for nothing!

We are entering the Obamageddon. Ask your friend if he would like national insolvency and a devalued dollar, because it is very clear that is where we are headed:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/21/GR2009032100104.html


46 posted on 08/21/2009 9:19:09 AM PDT by Rugged Individual (Who is the world's smallest minority? I am. I am an individual.)
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To: St. Louis Conservative
The short answer is "because it doesn't work very well." Your friend wants to frame the question into the arena of abstract theory where actual performance is no longer an issue. Force him to consider the entire topic.
47 posted on 08/21/2009 9:21:03 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: St. Louis Conservative

Dunno ‘bout the Post Office and the police being “socialist institutions.”
If the Post Office is an example of a socialist institution, then that should be the answer all by itself...

But the military is a different story.
The answers are also pretty obvious to the most casual observer.
Ask a soldier who has had to use it how he likes “Tricare” (as in “Try getting care”). The VA medical care is, of course worse.
Also the military is a huge money pit. The only reason they’re tolerated is that the military fulfills a unique function that can’t be safely delegated - killing people and breaking things (in a controlled fashion...). Outside of its “unique functions” (which our military is quite good at, when politicians don’t hamstring them...) it costs a lot more to do most things in the military than it would in the private sector and the quality of sometimes less than adequate.


48 posted on 08/21/2009 9:22:03 AM PDT by Little Ray (Do we have a Plan B?)
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To: Boiling Pots

and you might add look at the disarray they are in...under paid and under constant threat of cutbacks etc....the giv’t has issues with everything they run....


49 posted on 08/21/2009 9:25:20 AM PDT by tatsinfla
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To: St. Louis Conservative
You can't sue the government.
You have no say in any decision process on anything except by your vote or monetary donation.
Supporters of the decision makers will get preferential treatment.
Death decision or "Death Panels" have to be nessesary.
At least in the current system you get to be on the panel or at least a loved one does.
50 posted on 08/21/2009 9:29:06 AM PDT by right way right (Do not mistake Religion for God.)
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius

It gets much WORSE than the VA. By treaty, all Native American (Indian) reservations receive free health care from the federal government. In virtually every instance, they would get better care from the tribal shaman.


51 posted on 08/21/2009 9:31:40 AM PDT by MainFrame65 (The US Senate: World's greatest PREVARICATIVE body!.)
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To: St. Louis Conservative

Say goodbye to the nice private retirement communities and hello to miserable bare nessesity public “retirement” institutions which may as well be called death camps.


52 posted on 08/21/2009 9:32:27 AM PDT by right way right (Do not mistake Religion for God.)
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To: St. Louis Conservative

Well, if you really want to analyze it: Government agencies exist where there is a need that cannot be expected to be met by private industry.

The law enforcement industry has grown and in many cases created since the founding of this nation. It really shouldn’t exist as it does today. It is an extension of government power and not organizations of peace and civil authority and respect.

The post office was established to ensure communications between government agencies and to/from private individuals. There should be no ban against private first class mail as there is today.

The Army and Navy were established to ensure national defense but relied heavily on private militia. Now, they are standing armies.

The fire departments didn’t even exist. We canot demand a private company perform fire department duties but we can tax and create one as a government, although many fire departments are still volunteer and privately funded.


53 posted on 08/21/2009 9:38:11 AM PDT by CodeToad (If it weren't for physics and law enforcement I'd be unstoppable!)
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To: St. Louis Conservative
The examples given are all public goods and services that cannot properly be called socialism. National defense and police are traditional obligations of the state that arise from the need to defend the country and its citizens and enforce its laws, or services that by their nature cannot readily be left to private initiative because of the free rider problem (fire protection) or network and rate setting issues (post office) that tend toward natural monopoly.

The essence of socialism is that wealth and the means of production and services are publicly owned or tightly regulated and distributed so as to, in concept, promote equality. Obama's health care would radically change health care by socializing that entire sector of the economy.

In contrast, in free enterprise based on traditional American principles, private enterprise is eager and able to provide in abundance -- and that includes health care and health insurance. In addition to the conceptual distinctions, the hard fact of the matter is that socialism doesn't work.

In the long run, socialism weakens and bankrupts any society that embraces it. Even before then, sectors of the economy that are socialized produce inferior goods and services, as is evident in those countries that have socialized their health care. Our current health care issues could be remedied by opening up the private insurance market, making health care more entrepreneurial in delivery, tort reform, immigration enforcement, tax law changes, and subsidies to fashion a safety net for the residual uninsured.

54 posted on 08/21/2009 9:38:37 AM PDT by Rockingham
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To: glaseatr
the Post office is BROKE

Hussein agrees!

55 posted on 08/21/2009 9:41:22 AM PDT by bgill (The evidence simply does not support the official position of the Obama administration)
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To: St. Louis Conservative

Communist countries also have a military, police force, and postal service. They also run the school systems, and imprison their political adversaries. They gun down protesters in the streets, and systematically rape the women in their prisons.


56 posted on 08/21/2009 9:45:22 AM PDT by Gene Eric
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To: St. Louis Conservative
Those are public government services. None of them have ever been private enterprises. Healthcare, the banks and the auto industry are private enterprises that are being taken over by the government. That is not socialism, it is fascism.

Definition of Fascism: A political regime, usually totalitarian, ideologically based on centralized government, government control of business, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state and/or religion above individual rights. ...

Wiktionary Fascism

57 posted on 08/21/2009 10:02:55 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. Ben Franklin)
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To: St. Louis Conservative
Anyone remember the Walter Reed "scandal"?

I have many family members who have endured the ravages of the VA and have had multiple surgeries to correct blunders made by their VA surgeons.

I also had to spend several hours begging, pleading and crying to get my war veteran Dad into the VA hospital in Southern California for a disease they claimed wasn't serious enough. It later killed him.

58 posted on 08/21/2009 10:08:46 AM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: St. Louis Conservative
What does your friend do for a living. How well does he think the gummint would do that? Some things only gummint can do. Private police departments, private licensing agencies, etc. don't make sense. Competetion in water mains was an experiment that was tried and the town that tried had streets dug up for 20 years. Those things only gummint CAN do should be done by gummint. "For everything else there is" the free market. Socializing "everything" is also an experiment that has been tried and failed. You need smarter friends.

Μολὼν λάβε


59 posted on 08/21/2009 10:14:47 AM PDT by wastoute (translation of tag "Come and get them (bastards)" or "come get some")
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To: St. Louis Conservative; All

Just out of curiosity......with regard to Medicare, where does the “$30 trillion in unfunded liabilities” number come from? What do they mean by unfunded liabilities?


60 posted on 08/21/2009 12:19:37 PM PDT by St. Louis Conservative
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