OCTOBER DREAM [TERROR ATTACKS WORLDWIDE HAVE U HAD SUCH A DREAM OR VISION?]

QX NOTE: Since mentioning the below in a very sparse thread, a well known FREEPER has reported a similar dream. Another FREEPER, who probably knows more than many of the rest of us put togehter, said it was . . . my words . . . compatible with other . . . data.

If you FREEPMAIL them, please let me know if I can post them anonymously on this thread. Blessings, QX

Even as many had dreams indicating in July and August that September would be a month of storms, others have had dreams saying that October would be a month of terrorism. May we be found standing in the breach as the Lord would direct us.

I am standing outside, and approximately about 20 feet away from me, I see what looks like a big globe of the world.

As I begin to walk towards it, I am then lifted up far above this globe, and can now look down , and see the whole universe.

As I look far over towards the left, I see a darkening in the sky. In a blink of an eye, it strikes me that it has the resemblance of New York…the stock exchange buildings and business area. I then become aware, that as this situation is occurring, that in other parts of the world, there seem to be simultaneous attacks.

Although, I am not certain, of the exact places these attacks are also occurring, I do notice, that oil refineries, are being blown up, and I notice there seems to be those of Arabic descent as well as what appears to be Iraq, is now once again, under heavy attack, with air attacks, and ground forces, attacking just as they did in the beginning of the war…many lives are lost.

As this takes place, I look to my right, and see more destruction, and terror and death.

As I awoke, I was in tears, and kept hearing "Oct will be a significant month, Winds Of Change…Watch and Pray"

NOTE: I added some white space with increased paragraphing. Otherwise, it's unchanged.

Experiential Calvinism and the Charismatic Gifts

The issue of the whether or not the extraordinary spiritual gifts are for today has caused much debate and opinion in the body of Christ. There are biblically based groups who say that if you do speak in tongues, then you are under demonic control and are not saved. On the other hand, there are groups who say that if you do not speak in tongues then you are not saved.

Both sides use scripture to support their position. As far as the Reformed camp goes, the position is that the gifts died with the apostles as the Bible was completed. As a Calvinist, and after examining the biblical evidence for cessationism, I do not believe that the extraordinary spiritual gifts have ceased. Therefore, I call myself an "Experiential Calvinist." As an experiential Calvinist, I seek the Holy Spirit, His filling, and I am open to God using me and others in extraordinary ways.

If you are Reformed, you might be slapping your forehead right now and saying something like, "How could he possibly believe that?". I do because I have examined the scriptures and am convinced by what I read. The following paper, in part, is what I have discovered.

Please understand, that even though I am convinced that I am right, I am also convinced that I could be wrong. I can only speak for what I believe and why I believe it. If you disagree then that is quite alright. As Romans 14 says, we are not to pass judgment on our brother's (and sister's) debatable issues. And the spiritual gifts is definitely a debatable issue.

For simplicity sake, I will state a standard objection to the perpetuity of the spiritual gifts and then I will give what I believe is a basic but sufficient refutation for that argument. All the verses quoted are listed in full at the end of this paper.

Argument 1:
Since we have the Bible we do not need spiritual gifts. 1 Cor. 13:8-10 is usually quoted as scriptural support for the position.

The only place in Scripture that explicitly states when gifts will cease is 1 Cor. 13:8-13. In part it reads, "When the perfect comes the imperfect shall be done away with." Some vigorously maintain that the "perfect" is the completed Bible and, therefore, the extraordinary gifts are no longer needed. If someone wants to believe that, fine. But I do not think these verses can be used to support cessationism. This is why.

Verse 12 says, "...then we shall see face to face." The word "then" refers back to the phrase "when the perfect comes." Since the only infallible interpreter of Scripture is Scripture, a quick examination of the way God uses the term "face to face" should help us understand this passage better.

The phrase is used throughout the Bible and always means an encounter with a person. When God uses it in reference to Himself, it means a visual, personal encounter with Him (Gen. 32:30; Ex. 33:11; Num. 12:8; Duet. 5:4; and Jer. 32:4). Likewise in the New Testament. There it is also used in speaking of personal encounter (2 Cor. 10:1; 2 John 12; 3 John 14, etc.). "When the perfect comes...then we shall see face to face" seems, most logically, to refer a personal encounter; at least, that seems to be how God uses the phrase.

If the position is take that the "perfect" is the completed Bible, how then do we encounter God in the same manner as the phrase suggests: an encounter with a person. Seeing Christ face to face occurs when He returns.

Another "then" is mentioned in verse 12: "then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." The word "then" again refers back to the phrase "when the perfect comes." Again, we need to look at how the Bible uses words, this time, the word "know." Scripture says that eternal life is to know God (John 17:3). Only the believer is known by Jesus (John 10:27; Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29). The unbeliever is not known by Jesus (Matt. 7:21-23). No where in the Bible does it say that an unbeliever is known by God. This is a salvific knowing; that is, it is a kind of knowing that God does of His people. He knows them and they are saved. The unbelievers are not known and are, therefore, not saved.

It would seem most consistent with scripture to say that "...as I am fully known" would refer to a salvation relationship between Jesus and the Christian. At the return of Christ we (the ones known) shall know fully; we shall see face to face the One who is our Savior.

Also, we don't "know" Jesus through the Scripture; we know about Him from the Scripture (John 5:39). Instead, we know Him by personal encounter (John 1:12; 1 Cor. 1:9) through the Holy Spirit's indwelling. We don't know fully right now, even though we have the Bible, because we still are corrupted by our sin nature. In our fallen state we can only see Christ through sin-clouded eyes. We see a reflection of Christ in the Word. When Jesus returns the reflection of the truth will pass to clear understanding (the way childish thoughts give way to mature ones) when we receive our resurrected bodies, no longer have to battle sinful flesh, and can see Him face to face because "we shall be like Him" (1 John 3:2).. "Then we shall know fully."

The context of 1 Cor. 13:8-13 seems, to me, to show that the spiritual gifts will cease when Jesus returns. Interestingly, 1 Cor. 1:7 may be consulted here. It says, "Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed." (NIV)

The Greek word here for "revealed" is apokalupsis. It means the apocalypse, the return of Jesus. In both this verse and 1 Cor. 13:8-13 the gifts, which aren't differentiated as to which kind they are, are connected to the return of Christ, not the completion of the Bible.

Argument 2:
Present day tongues are further revelation and must then be equal to Scripture and should be included in the Bible. But since the Bible is not to be added to, the gift of tongues (and therefore, the rest of the spiritual gifts) must no longer be valid.

This is a faulty argument because the Scripture itself recognizes inspired revelation that is not to be added to the Bible: "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church" (1 Cor. 14:26).

Here, in the Corinthian church, revelations were given that were not made part of the Bible. This shows that there were, for a lack of a better word, "different" kinds of revelation: one from the prophets and apostles meant for canonization and another through the Spirit to be used in the church for edification--not canonization. So, in my opinion, for someone to maintain that revelation today is a threat to the Canon does not consider 1 Cor. 14:26, is not applying scripture properly here, and is being illogical.

Argument 3:
There is such misuse of the gifts that they couldn't possibly be real.

First of all, misuse of the gifts implies their existence. They couldn't be misused if they did not exist. The only real position to be taken here would be that the use of the gifts really is no use, but is only fakery and self-deception.

First, it cannot be denied that the gifts are misused. I have heard manifestations of tongues, interpretations of tongues, and prophecy that, in my opinion, were not genuine. But I do not discredit the gifts based upon those experiences anymore than I would say the spiritual gifts are alive because I saw them used well and accurately. The final authority is the word of God. Experience does not make doctrine, the Bible does.

Second, it is not a sick child that needs discipline and correction, it is the active, energetic, exploring child that needs to be guided. This was so with the Corinthian church. They were using the gifts greatly but improperly and needed to be corrected.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Regarding "Face to Face":

Genesis 32:30 - "So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Exodus 33:11 - "The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent."

Numbers 12:8 - "With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" Deuteronomy 5:4 - "The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain."

Jeremiah 32:4 - "Zedekiah king of Judah will not escape out of the hands of the Babylonians but will certainly be handed over to the king of Babylon, and will speak with him face to face and see him with his own eyes."

2 Corinthians 10:1 - "By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you -- I, Paul, who am "timid" when face to face with you, but "bold" when away!"

2 John 12 - "I have much to write to you, but I do not want to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete."

3 John 14 - "I hope to see you soon, and we will talk face to face. Peace to you. The friends here send their greetings. Greet the friends there by name."

Regarding "Know"

John 10:27 - "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."

Galatians 4:8-9 - "Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God -- or rather are known by God -- how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?"

Romans 8:29 - "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son..."

Matthew 7:21-23 - "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Note: This paper was written in response to an examination at Westminster Theological Seminary where I obtained my M.Div. The occasion was generated by my receiving a call to a local pastorate.

When it was discovered I believed in the spiritual gifts, I was examined and, eventually, refused the pastorate because I beleived in the perpetuity of the gifts. In response to the examiners requests I read the following cessationist material. Perhaps this bibliography will help you make a decision for yourself.

The Final Word by O. Palmer Robertson Perspectives on Pentecost, by Richard B. Gaffin, Jr. Charismatic Chaos, by John MacArthur. The articles, Has the Charismatic Age Ceased, by Donald MacLeod; The Charismatic Movement: Spectrum of Theological Opinion and Attitude, by Pastor Dave Eby; Can we Do Miracles Today? by Erroll Hulse; A Summary of Robert L. Dabney on 'Spurious Religious Excitements, by Daniel E. Wray; The Miraculous Gifts of the Holy Spirit--Have They Ceased?, by Roland S. Barnes; The Cessation of Extraordinary Gifts: Historical Evidence, by Geoffrey Thomas; and Scripture Verses the Spiritual Gifts?", by Elliot Miller at Christian Research Institute. The pamphlet, Crucial Issues Regarding Tongues, by Kenneth L. Gentry Jr. A Pastoral Letter Concerning the Experience of the Holy Spirit in the Church Today, adopted by the Second General Assembly of the PCA.

To be fair, I also read the non-cessationist book Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, by Jack Deere which proved to be most enlightening.

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Following is a point of illustration.

If the cessationist argument is true then it seems to negate parts of the Bible; namely, parts where spiritual gifts for the church are listed and exemplified. I have reproduced 1 Cor. 12,13, and 14 and "crossed out," by making the text ~~bold,~~ [QUIX NOTE: I believe his idea is an excellent one. It's the literal, honest, functional acting out, demonstration of the cessationist perspective. Any other fantasy about the written text is either not congruent and honestly in keeping with cessationism--OR--it's NOT congruent and honestly in keeping with THE WRITTEN TEXT. However, I believe that the author did not follow through consistently enough. So, where I believe additional strikeouts would be more congruent with cessationism than what the author struck out--I dropped his bolding and but continued the strikeout without the bolding as my own fuller demonstration of his point]

those portions that are no longer applicable from a cessationist point of view. The specific verses may be debatable, but I think the point is made.

1 Corinthians 12:1-31

1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. 4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free -- and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?

18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body. 21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment.

[QUIX NOTE: IT AMAZES ME on rereading these precious passages--Paul is CLEARLY TALKING ABOUT THE BODY OF CHIRST. He is NOT talking about some tiny slice of time about a tiny group of apostles and prophets of only the dusty pathed days of Jesus and the apostles. That idea is just nonsensical when the whole thing is taken in context.

Paul is talking about; Holy Spirit is talking about THE DIFFERENT UNIQUE MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST FUNCTIONING TOGETHER AS THE BODY OF CHIRST. No other interpretation is possible. PART AND PARCEL OF THAT DISCUSSION IS THE INTEGRATION FITTINGLY, APPROPRIATELY, PROPERLY of the operation of the Gifts.]

But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, ~~second prophets,~~ third teachers, then ~~workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing,~~ those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and ~~those speaking in different kinds of tongues.~~

29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? ~~30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?~~ 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way. (NIV)

1 Corinthians 13:1-13

~~1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels,~~ but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. ~~2If I have the gift of prophecy~~ and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (NIV)

1 Corinthians 14:1-40

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.

4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

~~6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?~~ 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes?

8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you.

Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. 13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified. 18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord. 22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!" 26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, ~~a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation.~~

All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at the most three, should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. 29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.

~~31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.~~ 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? ~~37If anybody thinks he is a prophet~~ or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. [QX EMPHESIS FOLLOWS in blue bold] 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

~~39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. (NIV)~~

I would be very interested in hearing your comments on this paper. Please E-mail at the address below.

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Return to the Calvinist Corner

Copyright by Matthew J. Slick, B.A., M. Div., 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 I welcome your comments via E-mail at matt@carm.org

FROM:

HERE: http://www.mslick.com/gifts.htm

The following is as good a presentation as I think I've seen of both sides, in at least many respects. There are a large number of links as well--painstakingly added!

NOTE: I *FINALLY* got it to post without mushing all together and without having to put the codes in. I did deleate an approximation sign in the process. An approx 7 pages turned thereby into 7 pages. somewhere below.

Blessings, Qx

FOLLOWING IS AN INTERESTING PORTION OF A BLOG BETWEEN A CESSATIONIST AND NONCESSATIONIST who have a problem of often agreeing with one another.

From:

http://jollyblogger.typepad.com/jollyblogger/2004/05/cessationism_an.html

With that last post I mentioned from Adrian, the debate has now taken a turn into the whole issue of the charismatic movement and cessationism. If you read Adrian's post you see that he references a prophecy that was given in reference to C. H. Spurgeon. In a private IM conversation with Adrian I told him that I give up, he wins. After all, in theological debate a Spurgeon quote settles any issue. A Spurgeon quote is like four aces in poker, its like sinking a sixty foot putt for eagle on the 18th at Augusta (or St. Andrews) to win the Masters (British Open), its Michael Jordan's buzzer beater that defeats the Jazz in the NBA finals - in short, a Spurgeon quote settles any theological argument.

However, I couldn't let it go that easy, yes I had to find my own Spurgeon quote to come back at him with. I shared with Adrian the website from Eric Hayden where some reference is made to the charismatic gifts. Adrian posted that on his blog here

http://www.adrian.warnock.info/

It seems to me that this shows Spurgeon to be a Cessationist - especially considering the following quote:

It is a rule of the kingdom to keep the best wine to the last; and therefore, I conclude that you and I are not left to partake of the dregs, but that those gifts of the Holy Spirit which are at this time vouchsafed to the church of God are every way as valuable as those earlier miraculous gifts which are departed from us.

(Now that I had my own Spurgeon quote, I figured that I was at least even in the debate again). Adrian agreed but he also pointed out that, if Spurgeon was a Cessationist, then he was far more open to supernatural manifestations than are the cessationists of today are. Hmm, . . . good point. Adrian's post on the views of the Good Doctor

http://www.adrian.warnock.info/2004/05/martyn-lloyd-jones-hearing-from-god.htm

(Martin Lloyd-Jones) would back that contention up. I guess I'll never win this debate if I keep agreeing with my opponents points.

As best I can tell, the issue revolves around the question of "what do we make of the charismatic phenomena." The issue is not so much "that" something is happening, but rather "how do we interpret that which is happening and what does it mean?" It is to those questions that I want to address my thoughts.

You can probably tell by now that I am in the Cessationist camp. I would accept the basic cessationist exegesis of somone like R. Fowler White in his articles "Gaffin and Grudem on Ephesians 2:20,"

http://www.the-highway.com/cessation_White.html

and "Does God Speak Today Apart from the Bible?"

http://www.the-highway.com/God_Speak.html

I would agree with all those who believe that the canon is closed, and with the closing of the canon, God no longer speaks to us as He did the Biblical writers.

However, I do believe that God still acts supernaturally today. Adrian mentions that Cessationists claim the Doctor and if he was indeed a cessationist, I find nothing particularly troubling about his longing for a tremendous outpouring of the Spirit.

I think we all ought to acknowledge that there are phenomena in our world today that appears supernatural. I realize there are some extreme cessationists who would argue that there aren't. I heard the story of a seminary student who had some type of experience that he considered supernatural. When he told the story to his professors, he says that they said that couldn't have happened. The reason is that their theology wouldn't allow for it.

I find that kind of argument has little weight. Granted, people can deceive themselves, but not everyone who has this kind of experience is deceiving themselves. I had the chance to meet Dr. William Edgar from Westminster Seminary one time and ask him about charismatic manifestations. He said we all agree that God is doing some wonderful things, the disagreement is over how to interpret them. I find that a better approach.

The cessationist often tries to tell the non-cessationist that his experiences didn't happen. To do so has the effect of either calling the non-cessationist a liar or mentally ill. And, there are cessationists who I am sure believe that. Edgar was wiser in acknowledging the reality of the phenemena, and letting the debate rest on the interpretation.

Before getting to the meat and potatoes of what I want to say I want to share a personal point of view on terminology. Personally, I don't like to use the terms "supernatural" and "miracles" to describe the charismatic phenomena. I prefer the old historical distinction between ordinary and extraordinary providence, as propounded by men like Jonathan Edwards.

My reason for this is not because I think that terms like "supernatural" and "miraculous" make too much of the extraordinary, rather they make too little of the ordinary. If it is true that Christ holds all things together (Colossians 1:17) and that "in Him, we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28), then the fact that my arms are still attached to my trunk, my heart is beating and I am able to lift finger to keyboard to type this are just as much the work of God as parting the Red Sea. God accomplishes both, its just that He ordinarily permits hearts to beat and limbs to remain attached, but He only parts seas on very special and extraordinary occasions.

Having said that, the church has historically recognized that God sometimes does "extraordinary" things. Hence, the church has always acknowledged things like the "Spurgeon-prophecy" have happened, but those were extraordinary things, not to be expected by all, and not be be expected very often. I think the great divide between the cessationists and the charismatics came when the charismatics (probably around the time of the Azusa Street revivals) began to claim that that which the church had always considered to be extraordinary should now become ordinary.

Another divide came with the idea that God speaks today in the same manner as He did with the apostles and prophets of Biblical times. Hence, many think that what they think they hear God saying to them has the same authority for them as the Word of God. Just anecdotally I can think of someone who had a word from God for me, about me. After delivering the word, I asked this person if he would be willing to entertain the notion that he could be wrong. He said he had considered that, but he decided that it was definitely God speaking to him, so no, he could not be wrong.

I happened to know from others to whom this person had given "words from God" that he had been wrong in the past, but he was undaunted. I think of someone I know who believes that God gave them a specific promise regarding a specific life event that was to come to pass. After years, that event has not come to pass and they struggle with feelings of abandonment by God.

I realize there is a sense in which you could accuse me of playing dirty pool by bringing out those examples. Charismatics have often pointed out that when cessationists want to make a point, they drag out the most far out, whacky examples they can find. In some respects I think this is what has hindered John MacArthur from making much of an impact on the charismatic movement with his book Charismatic Chaos.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310575729/qid=1084820676/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1__i1_xgl14/102-3725883-4256934?v=glance&s=books

In that book MacArthur found a veritable rhogues gallery of kooks, lunatics, and wackos who were an embarassment to most of their fellow charismatics. This made it difficult for charismatics to want to be willing to listen to his theological arguments.

But I bring up those extremes to point out that, for good or for ill, the extremists defined the charismatic movement in most people's eyes for a long period of time. For many years, when you thought of a charismatic pictures of Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland and their ilk came to mind. Its just that they were the ones on TV, they were the ones making the big splashes, and so they were the ones you thought about when you thought about a charismatic.

Furthermore, the problems escalated from the cessationist point of view when the extraordinary became the expected and codified in doctrinal statements of denominations like the Assembly of God, where it was expected that all believers would receive a post-regeneration of baptism in the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues.

The phenomena associated with the modern day charismatic movement seems to be irregular in the Bible, and furthermore, it is subject to different interpretations. For instance, here are just a handful of things we have to take into account in regard to some of this "extraordinary" phenomena.

1. Satan can produce extraordinary phenomena - II Thessalonians 2:9.

2. Extraordinary gifts are not peculiar to believers - Jonathan Edwards says this:

The gifts of tongues, of miracles, of prophecy, &c., although they are not ordinarily bestowed on the Christian Church, but only on extraordinary occasions, yet are not peculiar to the godly, for many ungodly men have had these gifts (Matt. vii. 22, 23) - " Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils ? and in thy name done many wonderful works? and then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Consider the following examples of unbelievers who were enabled, sometimes by God, sometimes by Satan, to exhibit extraordinary phenomena:

a. The magicians of Egypt (Exodus 7:11, 22, 8:7)

b. The Witch of Endor - I Samuel 28

c. Balaam's Donkey - Numbers 22:22-30

d. Balaam himself - in Numbers 22-23,

God speaks to him and through him. This was no satanic delusion, it was God Himself speaking. Yet, in II Peter 2, Jude 11 and Revelation 2, Balaam becomes a warning to others, an example of ungodliness.

Speaking of the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit,

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/Charity/Charity%202.htm

Edwards says this:

In the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, the Holy Ghost does indeed produce effects, in men, or by men; but not so as properly to communicate himself, in his own proper nature, to men. A man may have an extraordinary impulse in his mind by the Spirit of God, whereby some future thing may be revealed to him; or he may have an extraordinary vision given him, representing some future event; and yet the Spirit may not at all impart himself, in his holy nature, by that.

The Spirit of God may produce effects in things in which he does not communicate himself to us. Thus the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters, but not SO as to impart himself to the water.

I would also point out that these Scriptural truths are demonstrated in many places in our day. A few months ago I was researching the charismatic phenomena in other religions and found that such things do indeed take place.

Regarding the experience of speaking in tongues,

http://www.geocities.com/prunepitts1/Tounges.html

my friend Terry Pruitt

http://pruittcommunications.blogspot.com/

says this:

People in almost every religion practice some form of ecstatic utterance and it is a common human experience.
As to casting out of demons, this is done in the Jewish faith,

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view_friendly.jsp?artid=553&letter=E

and the Islamic faith.

http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=0VBuNx

Regarding charismatic phenomena in general, consider these words

http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/me_in_restoration/charismatic_Mormon.htm

from Lynn Ridenour, a Baptist who converted to Mormonism:
Next. Sounds like you've discovered a friendly, exciting Charismatic, non-denominational fellowship——called Community Chapel where people probably raise their hands in worship, clap, shout (at times), where healings and miracles are witnessed, and demonic deliverances occur, and where spiritual gifts operate.

That's great. I mean that. Here's the irony. All of the above is why I embraced the restoration gospel. I've often said, if Joseph Smith were alive today, he would "out-charismatic" the charismatics! Joseph Smith was a "non-denominational charismatic." He moved in the gifts of the Spirit; his leaders moved in the gifts.

[Quix: the counterfeit of THE Gifts of THE Spirit, however]

Worship services were exciting, filled with the glory of the Lord, and the anointing of His presence. Angels visited, sang, and ministered in their meetings. Joseph Smith's meetings were much like today's Benny Hinn's healing crusades——filled with spontaneous supernatural manifestations.

I sometimes tell my charismatic friends, the modern-day pentecostal outpouring occurred in the midwest, not out west in California on Azusa street. A tremendous outpouring of the Holy Spirit first occurred in 1836 in Kirtland, Ohio. Not 1900 in California.That's 64 years before the renowned Azusa street visitation.

Coupled with all of this, I would point out a few insights gleaned from the book Seeing God

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/083081616X/qid=1084838120/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104-5919729-4135926?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

by Gerald R. McDermott. This is a study and modernization of Jonathan Edwards Religious Affections.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0851514855/qid%3D1084838394/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-5919729-4135926

McDermott lists several attributes, gleaned from Edwards, of those who are deceived.

1. They have no fear of deception - they don't realize that spiritual deception is common and easy to fall into.

2. They don't question their own spiritual judgments because they don't know that their own hearts are often blind and deceitful. True Christians recognize this problem and bemoan the duplicity of their own hearts.

3. They don't comprehend their own sinfulness. They think they are virtuous and even better than most.

McDermott and Edwards apply these thoughts to people who are deceived about their salvation, but it could just as easily apply here. Please note, I am not saying that those who have had extraordinary experiences are deceived, only that they might be, and they ought to recognize this. On several occasions I have run into people who have had extraordinary experiences who are quite certain of the deceitfulness of my heart, but are unwilling to consider that there could be any deceit in their hearts.

There is a certain kind of person who is prone to this. Colossians 2:18-19 says this:

18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions,(code) (code) puffed up without reason by (code) his sensuous mind, 19 and not (code) holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (electronic ed.) (Col 2:18-19). Wheaton: Good News Publishers.

There are those in the charismatic movement for whom their experiences has caused them to be humble and there are those for whom their experiences have caused them to become "puffed up," to the point of defrauding others. These are those who have no fear of deception, who don't question their own spiritual judgments and don't know their own sinfulness.

In all fairness, let me admit that these things happen amongst every group of Christians and are very prevalent in my own beloved little Reformed camp, and sadly, in my own life. I look back at ways I have deceived myself in the past and hang my head in shame and I also tremble to consider what I will find when I look back on this period in my life years from now.

Now, for all of my charismatic friends whom I have offended thus far, let me say that I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, trying to lump charismatics in with the Muslims, the Mormons and Balaam. What I am arguing against is the use of anecdotal accounts of particular phenomena to prove a doctrine.

Fortunately, in our day, the charismatic movement has matured. My guess is that Adrian would be in much agreement with my last point - that the phenomena themselves don't verify the doctrine, and I would be curious to know what my friend Bob at Mister Standfast,

http://misterstandfast.blogspot.com/

would say to the idea that the phenomena in and of themselves don't prove the doctrine. So, what do we do with the phenomena themselves? To answer that I would point to an article in the Journal of Evangelical Theology, (39/1) of March 1996, by Vern Poythress of Westminster Seminary, called Modern Spiritual Gifts As Analogous To Apostolic Gifts: Affirming Extraordinary Works Of The Spirit Within Cessationist Theology. Sorry, I couldn't find it online.

Poythress refers to extraordinary phenomena such as the things Spurgeon experienced, as well as others in the experiences of people like Samuel Rutherford, Cotton and Increase Mather, Os Guiness, R. C. Sproul, Peter Marshall and John Flavel. Some comments from Rutherford seem particularly helpful here. He speaks of certain men who had received prophecies of a sort which did in fact come true. Of these men, he says they:

1. Never tied any man to believe their prophecies as they believed the Scriptures.

2. Never claimed to be immediately inspired by the Holy Spirit.

3. Never proclaimed any kind of judgment against those who did not believe their "prophecies."

In contrast, Anne Hutchinson believed that her revelations about future events were as infallible as any Scripture, and she was as bound to believe them as the Scriptures as they were both inspired by the same Holy Spirit.

Even though I disagree with Wayne Grudem's position on the gift of prophecy, he provides plenty of cautions, which, if heeded, could prevent a lot of confusion. MacArthur quotes him favorably in his book Reckless Faith.

http://misterstandfast.blogspot.com/

Grudem says:

"I am asking that charismatics . . . stop calling [prophecy] 'a word from the Lord' - simply because that label makes it sound exactly like the Bible in authority."

Grudem also says:

"Remember that what is spoken in any prophecy today is not the word of God, but is simply a human being reporting in merely human words something which God has brought to mind."

I agree with the main idea of that statement, although as you can imagine I don't think there is any objective way of verifying that that "which God has brought to mind" is really from God, if it is not a verse of Scripture. Still, his point is good - those who claim to prophecy ought not to equate their words with God's words. Also, Grudem warns that modern prophecy:

should not be thought of as "God's very words," nor should the speaker preface his or her remarks with words which would give that impression, such as "Thus says the Lord," or "Hear the words of God," etc - those statements should be reserved for Scripture alone. Something like, "I think the Lord is showing me that . . . " or "I think the Lord is indicating that . . . " or, "It seems that the Lord is putting on my heart a concern that . . . " would all be much more appopriate and far less misleading.

I would be curious to see if my charismatic friends would accept this assessment given by R. Fowler White:

For some, the words "God speaks today" are simply a popular, if misleading, way of describing the fact that God guides and directs His people by His Spirit in the application of His written word through promptings, impressions, insights, and the like.

Most non-Pentecostals and noncharismatics have explained these (more or less) intuitive experiences in terms of the Spirit’s works of illumination, leading, and conviction. A few would even acknowledge that, among those who fit a given psycho-spiritual profile, these experiences might be accompanied by things seen or heard.

All of these experiences are, however, carefully distinguished from the Spirit’s work of revelation. Hence, though the Spirit’s illumination and guidance may sometimes focus on phenomena such as promptings or impressions, those phenomena are not specifically interpreted as involving the biblical ministry-gifts of revelation, such as prophecy and tongues or their correlates (e.g., visions, dreams, auditions).

John Murray has similar thoughts in "The Guidance of the Holy Spirit," in volume 1 of his Collected Writings:
We must rely upon the Holy Spirit to direct and guide us in the understanding and application of God’s will as revealed in Scripture, and we must be constantly conscious of our need of the Holy Spirit to apply the Word effectively to us in each situation.

The function of the Holy Spirit in such matters is that of illumination as to what the will of the Lord is, and of imparting to us the willingness and strength to do that will. . . As we are the subjects of this illumination and are responsive to it, and as the Holy Spirit is operative in us to the doing of God’s will, we shall have feelings, impressions, convictions, urges, inhibitions, impulses, burdens, resolutions. Illumination and direction by the Spirit through the Word of God will focus themselves in our consciousness in these ways. . .

It is here, however, that careful distinction is necessary The moment we desire or expect or think that a state of our consciousness is the effect of a direct intimation to us of the Holy Spirit’s will, or consists in such an intimation and is therefore in the category of special direction from him, then we have given way to the notion of special, direct, detached communication from the Holy Spirit.

And this, in respect of its nature, belongs to the same category as belief in special revelation. The only way whereby we can avoid this error is to maintain that the direction and guidance of the Holy Spirit is through the means which he has provided, and that his work is to enable us rightly to interpret and apply the Scripture in the various situations of life, and to enable us to, interpret all the factors which enter into each situation in the light of Scripture. (pp. 188-89)

In both cases, the authors acknowledge the reality of the phenomena, but interpret those phenomena different than some of the more extreme charismatics.

People like Adrian and Bob at Mister Standfast, and Wayne Grudem are examples of the maturity of the modern charismatic movement. Back in the 80's and 90's it seemed like every charismatic I met was of the more, shall we say, excessive variety.

It is not that way anymore. In fact, my favorite pastor in town, outside of my own denomination, is the local Vineyard pastor. I have had some terrific fellowship with him. When I have a Sunday off, I do my best to attend Covenant Life Church

http://www.covlife.org/

in Gaithersburg, MD, a "Reformed-Charismatic" pastored by C. J. Mahaney, and now Josh Harris. I have to confess that my historical aversion to many things in the charismatic movement came because of exposure only to the extremists, the Benny Hinn's, Kenneth Copeland's and others like them. I wonder how things would be different if C. J. Mahaney had become the face of the charismatic movement instead of some of these other guys.

There is a wonderful rapprochement going on these days between charismatics and cessationists. The article by Vern Poythress that I previously mentioned was his attempt to show the validity of the supernatural in a cessationist environment.

I heard a story awhile back about a debate between a member of the Vineyard Association and Richard Gaffin, one of the leading cessationists. An observer was very impressed when Gaffin shared a hymnal with his debate opponent before the debate began and by the cordial tone in which the issues were argued.

For all of his bluster against the charismatic movement, I was impressed to see that John MacArthur's church is sponsoring a singles conference next year where C. J. Mahaney will be one of the featured speakers. In one of his earlier editions of Charismatic Chaos, MacArthur noted that there were no great theologians who came out of the charismatic movement.

This can't be said anymore. Although most of us don't accept his teaching on prophecy, you would be surprised at how often dyed in the wool Reformed cessationists quote Wayne Grudem's systematic theology. It's just an outstanding work and no one can accuse him of any inferior scholarship. The same can be said of Gordon Fee, one of the leading New Testament scholars of our day.

As you can tell by the horrible length of this post, I have given this matter a fair amount of thought. Although I have kind of laid out my case as to the problems I have with the charismatic movement, I hope it has been respectful and fair, and I stand ready to be corrected by my friends in the movement.

In this post I have laid out what I see as the dangers, after all I had to, I'm arguing with Adrian, remember ;-) At the same time I am willing to admit that people like Spurgeon and many people today have been greatly blessed by the extraordinary phenomena, and in case I haven't said it, yes I do believe that God does do this from time to time.

I am wondering if, as a way forward, our charismatic friends could realize the cessationists allergic reaction when they say they have received a "word from God," and simply follow the advice of Grudem, to tone down the language, and recognize they could be wrong. Also, could they admit that these things are truly extraordinary, and therefore, not to be expected on a regular basis.

On the other hand, I wonder if we cessationists could quit trying to disprove the phenomena and acknowledge, a la Martin Lloyd Jones, that God can and may do extraordinary things in our day. Also, could we quit seeing Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggert and people like that every time we see a charismatic brother and sister.

James Davison Hunter, in his book Culture Wars,

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465015344/qid=1084841332/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4648433-6973501?v=glance&s=books

showed that it is always the extremists who get the press. The rank and file of any movement usually are not extremists, yet they get tarred with the same brush as the extremists. We can count on the Benny Hinn's of the world to continue doing outlandish things to keep themselves in the news, but there are millions of brothers and sisters in the charismatic movement who are alot closer to us than they are to him.

May God give us the grace to listen to and learn from one another.

May 17, 2004 in Religion,

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Comments

David,

Just read your comments.It was the same old point of view that has been around for years..the issue is simply this..does God still speak today? So many believe that the Lord is not greater than His book..people fail to realize that the Word reveals who God is, not chain God to his Word. An author is always greater than his work..God will not be boxed in by people who try to put God in a bind. One of the greatest hindrances to the gospel is denying the power of the gospel and eliminating the gifts of the spirit operating in the churches today.

Millions are spent each year on evangelism with far too little results. Check your own denomination to see if this is not true. Where the gospel is preached with power, millions are coming to the Lord. For example, in Mozambique Heidi and Roland Baker have established 6000 churches since 1997 with signs, wonders, and miracles (such as people being raised from the dead). This is not just a local occurrence, but it is a world-wide phenomenon. God is a supernatural God and supernatural is "natural" to Him. He only works in the supernatural.

His supernatural manifests in the natural. Can you quote scripture that indicates that when the Bible was completed, as you say when it became closed, that the spiritual gifts ceased? Please do not quote 1 Corinthians 13:8, which most use as a proof text for cessationism. You will find in the Word that there is no reference to the power of God, the gifting of God, or the miraculous of God ever stopping until Jesus establishes His kingdom in power.

Posted by: Ron May 20, 2004 07:03 PM

Good discussion, guys. I enjoy the tone as well.

Posted by: Rey May 19, 2004 09:22 PM

I think my main disagreement with you isn't over substance but terminology. I haven't read Grudem's stuff on this except some skimming of his section on this in Systematic Theology. I have read Carson's book on I Cor 12-14, and I've been convinced by him that prophecy in the NT does not carry the authority of scripture. I'm not sure where he and Grudem disagree, if anywhere, but Carson clearly resists apply the word 'cessationist' to himself. He even gives an argument from I Cor 13 that tongues and prophecy haven't ceased!

Posted by: Jeremy Pierce May 19, 2004 09:17 PM

David,

How do you find time to write such long, cohesive posts? I'm duly impressed

Just curious, when you talk about cessationism, you're talking about the idea that the "sign gifts" have passed away, correct? Do you believe that spiritual gifts such as teaching, exhortation, etc. are still around?

Posted by: Sozo May 19, 2004 10:40 AM

Well Adrian, I guess you'll just have to return the favor - the next time you are quoting people just be sure and mention me in the same sentence as John Piper or someone like that

Posted by: David May 19, 2004 09:50 AM

Good stuff. John Piper has a 7 page paper thats online, that is non-cessationist. Its really good reading because in a small space, he covers a lot of points, that I had never thought of before.

Thanks,
Raj Rao

Posted by: Raj Rao May 19, 2004 08:50 AM

Wow.... now hows about that for a compliment- being mentioned in the same breath as Wayne Grudem?

I will mull this for a short while and respond in earnest!

Posted by: Adrian Warnocks UK Evangelical Blog | May 19, 2004 12:53 AM

David, you're a true gentleman. I haven't fully digested your post yet, but in answer to your invitation to comment on the matter of basing doctrine on experience I've posted something over at my blog. I'm loving this conversation between you and Adrian. Keep it up!

Posted by: Bob May 18, 2004 09:04 AM

To me all this "experience" dabbles too close to things we were never meant to explore. It is through God written word that He reveals Himself, not through some experience or feeling we may have.

Quix knocks the Calvinists but it was because of God revealing Himself to me in the manner that He did that I became a Calvinist. I didn't freely "go forward" or "make a choice" like Quix teaches. So that places my Calvinistic "experience" squarely against Quix's theological Arminian position which means 1) either my "experience" of salvation is wrong or 2) Quix's theological position is wrong. Either my “experience” is not God given or Quix is teaching false doctrine. In the method that I was saved Quix can’t have it both ways.

And you wrote that stuff straight faced? YOUR contradiction meter didn't peg off the scale???

You seem to take at least a couple of flying leaps off the logic cliff.

God does tons of things that seem to defy my expectations or ways of doing things. However: (A) He's God and I'm not! PTL! (B) His ways are higher than my ways. (C) He's welcome to do thing with any individual or any part of Creation any way He chooses. I trust His ways and His Nature.

What you describe is not very well described. Evidently there was some sort of

!!!EXPERIENCE!!!

whereby you went into the experience a NONBELIEVER and a NONCALVINIST and came out of the

experience

a believer and a Calvinist. It could easily be that God, realizing your psychological makeup etc., realized that there was one way to get you into the Kingdom in anything remotely like a timely way and that was the 'Calvinist' route.

I could certainly understand that from His perspective, it was far better to have you IN THE KINGDOM as a Calvinist rather than still outside The Kingdom.

There could also be any number of other reasons that The Lord allowed/facilitated things to go along that route.

FURTHER . . . such an experience has AT LEAST two sides and two parties--God's and yours.

There are ALL KINDS OF ISSUES, FACTORS, COMPONENTS etc. on both sides. You wholesale label the whole thing a certain glib, fuzzy, vague, shallow way. There's any number of other possible, plausible, Scriptural explanations and descriptions one might come up with.

"Sorry," your characterization doesn't box in my construction on reality, in the least.

The only way you can have a relationship with God is through His word and through prayer.

Oh, dear--"relationship"--as in an experience of an exchange between at least two personalities! Great!

is through His Word and prayer.

Great, as far as it goes. Kind of sounds rather anemic in a long list of ways. Kind of like getting married and on the first Honeymoon Night, the new wife says:

Oh, Honey, it's sooooooooooooo great to read all these cards and tags on all the gifts. Reading all these boxes and instruction manuals for all our gifts is soooooooo wonderful. It's such a thrill. Thanks soooooooooo much! NOW DON'T TOUCH ME! I CAN'T HANDLE THAT KIND OF EXPERIENCE! I know that the only thing tolerable for my marriage is to read all these manuals and cards and gift tags and to dream of a Heavenly Honeymoon. Thanks anyway. But NO TOUCHING. That's evil!

God have mercy! What unBiblical, satanic nonsense from the pit of hell. What a hideous doctrine of demons!

THE GOD OF ALL THAT IS GOES TO SUCH GREAT LENGTHS TO GIVE HIS SON THAT HE MIGHT HAVE THE MOST INTIMATE OF RELATIONSHIPS RESTORED WITH MAN.

THE SON LEAVES THIS PLANET AND SENDS HOLY SPIRIT TO CONSUMATE THE

RELATIONSHIP,
THE DIALOGUE,
THE DANCE,
THE INTIMACY,
THE SPIRITUAL INTERCOURSE!

And clever satan has seduced masses of even earnest believers into being content--even defensive about contenting themselves with reading the manuals and gift tags on the gifts! What hideous NONSENSE! How it must grieve The Father, The Son and The Spirit!

THEY WON'T EVEN

APPLY

THE MANUAL IN THEIR !!!!RELATIONSHIP!!!! WITH THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE SPIRIT!!!!!!! DOH!!!

And The Father watches, grieves and shakes His head at how excruciatingly bluntly He has to spell it out in neon colors with miraculous handwriting on the walls and lives and minds of countless Calvinists stubbornly resistent to His Spirit . . . stubbornly resistent to even simply applying the manual!

I too would leave a church that would forbid the reading and studying of the ENTIRE Bible.

That's great to read. Could have fooled me! But, really, I understand what you're saying. A church should

TEACH

the entire Bible--they'd just better be darn careful about encouraging anyone to

APPLYING,
PRACTICING

VERY SIGNIFICANT PORTIONS OF THE KEY NEW TESTAMENT PORTION OF THE MANUAL FOR CHRISTIAN LIFE!!!!

Yeah, right. Makes perfect NONsense!

But DON’T look for an “experience” from God.

WELLLLLLLLLL! I guess we have to throw out your conversion, then!

Not only so, but we'll HAVE to THROW OUT ALL those thousands of seconds of your

EXPERIENCES

with the WRITTEN manual.

BTW, PERHAPS you all could explain:

WHY
the very
ARBITRARY
CHOOSING
PREFERENCE
OF THE
INTELLECTUAL
EXPERIENCE
(TOO OFTEN THE
INTELLECTUAL
MASTURBATION)
OF THE
WRITTEN
MANUAL
INSTEAD OF
OVER
THE GRAND SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT;
THE GRAND SPIRITUAL DIALOGUE;
THE GRAND SPIRITUAL DANCE;
THE GRAND ECSTACY
ASPECTS, SIDE, DIMENSION
of a
RELATIONSHIP!!!
WITH GOD????

WHY

THAT PARTICULAR ARBITRARY

CHOICE?

Oh, I know the answer to that one!

(1) Not a choice in the first place--Calvinists don't have choices!!! LOL.

(2) Your personality factors demanded something more

supposedly, presumedly, pretendedly
SAFE

than all that other delicate, difficult to discern; tricky to apply; hard to measure, !!!!CONTROL!!!! and package, Spiritually sexy STUFF! (Oh, dear me, where's the hanky? Bring me my hives medicine! I mean, REALLY, King David should have been stoned for such a dance before the Ark! DISGRACEFUL. His wife was RIGHT! Why did SHE get punished? DAVID WAS THE BAD BOY! What a DISGRACEFUL EXPERIENCE HE WAS BRAZENLY DEMONSTRATING! TSK TSK TSK! /sar)

Of course, "safer" is nonsense. Witness all the 100's of heresies over the many centuries based ?totally? on some VERY FLAWED

EXPERIENCES

with the WRITTEN MANUAL.

Witness all the mangled new believers and seekers in countless congregations every Sunday from all the mishandling of the WRITTEN MANUAL in intellectually AND WITH HARSH EMOTIONS verbally grabbing folks by the throat and BEATING THEM ABOUT THE HEAD AND SHOULDERS TOWARD A HOPELESS HEART by EXPERIENCES of abusing the WRITTEN MANUAL in an intellectual dance, exercise, hideous display of emotional, intellectual abuse of individuals AND OF THE WRITTEN MANUAL--trying to hammer and pound into tidy little boxed confirmity all the ears and gray matter between of all those in earshot of the GRAND PONTIFICATOR nearby

And this is supposed to be SAFER? Only because it's YOUR particular tidy little boxed cells that you're so gleefully, smugly, proudly hammering folks into!

He’s not into parlor games.

True--usually. HOWEVER, CALLING HOLY SPIRIT'S DEMONSTRATION OF GOD'S WILL, MAJESTY AND POWER A "parlor game"

is NOT likely to endear you to The Father. But You're not really interested in an EXPERIENCE with The Father anyway. You just want to read about Him FROM A

"SAFE"

DISTANCE!!!!

You just want some nice, safe, comfortable mental masturbation looking at the ink on pages in the tiny, tidy little box closet of your mind.

ACTUALLY, God is USUALLY much more dramatic than hoakey, phoney little anemic parlor games. Even if it's a quiet miracle within someone's heart--it's still much more dramatic than a parlor game. I realize your constitution can't stand or handle dramatic. But you might prepare yourself. God happens to be very dramatic and is going to demonstrate it much more so than ever before--shortly. And, HEAVEN has TONS of drama! Perhaps you'd better plan on taking your smelling salts.

WHY you VERY ARBITRARILY choose that sort of closet masturbation EXPERIENCE viewing the the pretty intellectual pictures in the ink on the page INSTEAD of having a vibrant, restored-garden-walk with The Living God kind of experience--is somewhat mystifying--EXCEPT when one takes into consideration the psychological factors involved.

Instead, “STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED”.

Oh, it's GREAT TO STUDY

and then to go out or in and APPLY THE WRITTEN DANCE MANUAL in my

RELATIONSHIP

with The Father, The Son and The Spirit.

THAT DANCE IS WELL WORTH THE

PRACTICE!

Sigh.

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