Hello. Can you help me?

Ida M. Briggs

[Mister Blond]

What one?

And...

I don't think any "Karmic Hugs" are going to save them this time...Yeah, 2002 was bad for them, but this is all about President Bush AND the Supreme Court. There will be at least two of them...

[biblewonk]

You have a females understanding of God and Politics.

[Zavien Doombringer]

Many of us do not believe these things will result in eternal damnation, but are simply part of God’s plan for each individual.

Ida,

God's plan is to throw adulterers, liars, homosexuals, thieves and all sin into the lake of fire. Because you don't want to believe that doesn't mean it won't happen.

Sure, God is a God of love, that doesn't mean, lovey-dovey huggy-kissy love. Love isn't what you feel, love is what you do. God so LOVED the world he GAVE His only Son...

God is a just God and His words are true. He will do as he said he will do. He doesn't care what you believe, He knows what he will do.

God's love means being true to His word and His laws are set. He will not waiver.

Forgiveness and repenting from sin is the only answer. Homosexuality is a sin that is an abomination to God and will be "cleansed" in the lake of fire.

God is not mocked, just because you want some sin to be ok, doesn't mean it is OK with God.

[IdaBriggs]

I understand that people have different views on this topic. I sometimes think, however, it is being used by many people (on both sides) as a "deal-breaker" issue for picking competent leadership, and I don't think that makes sense.

[JerseyHighlander]

I didn't mean to come off so harsh, I understand as best I can, that you have found solace in your loss through those ideas you posted here.. But, without coming to a deeper understanding of the differrences between Divine Providence and Free Will, you won't have a leg to stand on in an discussion based on those thoughts which give you comfort personally.

What you debate here, has been debated for millenia, it's the absence of the disseminatino of previous generations' knowledge that has left you "open for discussion".

I'm skipping the gay argument here.

[Protagoras]

A few pertinient questions Ida.
Have you ever posted at this site before?
Do you post at DU?
Have you ever been banned from any website?
Do you think people are stupid?
When management checks your IP address will it show up on the "previously banned" list?

[chs68]

"By logic that views abortion as murder, that makes my miscarriages (which were acts of God) a crime by Him, and I * WILL NOT * believe that."

Do you really believe this?

If so, then do you also believe that any time a person dies, that that, too, is an "act of God" -- a crime by Him?

Why would you think that God causes miscarriages?

Do you think that God is responsible when a child drowns?

Or that God is responsible when a baby dies of SID?

Or that God causes some children to die in automobile accidents?

The fact that some pregnancies end in miscarriage does not, it seems to me, mean that God is responsible, as though God were some "great abortionist in the sky". Perhaps I misunderstand your point, though.

Coud you clarify it for me?

[Repairman Jack]

Death by natural causes - in the womb or in the retirement home, is an entirely different thing than a person intentionally killing another person.

You do understand that, don't you?

[freedumb2003]

That was almost as good as I Am A Bad American

[JerseyHighlander]

Man, you got me browsing this somewhat serious "open discussion" thread, and you go and drop that bomb:

You have a females understanding of God and Politics.

Thanks for the comic relief interlude.... Now back to your serious pro-choice/pro-life flame war....

[timpad]

I think this might be what you were looking for in the "swing voter" thread, Dan. I see a big difference. I'd be interested in knowing what you think.

[IdaBriggs]

>So if I said "I respect your right not to own a slave" would you recognize my "right to own a slave?"

No. While slavery was legal during biblical times (and still is in some parts of the world), the people of the United States have decided that it is not something we accept (as of the 1860's!) because "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" (sorry if I'm mucking up the quote!) and I respect the Constitution of our country. My only regret is that it took so long before we understood it correctly.

[Steel Wolf]

That means to me that any child who is supposed to be here -- regardless of contraception or not -- will be born. With respect to Free Will, all things work to God's greater glory, even when we don't understand them.

When I was in Mosul, we'd get mortared on a regular basis. Mortars are a very random, arbitrary threat; you just never know where the thing's gonna land. The Mad Mortarman of Mosul, as we called him (or them, I guess) was a lousy shot. He couldn't hit the airfield most of the time, much less anything else. The sheer randomness of it left everyone with a sense that at any time, you could be standing in the wrong place, and the Mad Mortarman might accidentally hit you.

I didn't stop wearing my body armor, though. Free will, and the choices you make, directly impact your life. What you do, or fail to do, will have consequences. God may have a plan, but he leaves almost all of the execution of it up to us.

By logic that views abortion as murder, that makes my miscarriages (which were acts of God) a crime by Him, and I * WILL NOT * believe that.

I'm very sorry for your loss. I think, though, that you're trying to attribute human motives to God. All of us will die. Our time on Earth is finite due to the frailty of our physical bodies. That doesn't mean that God is running around murdering people.

The logic that views miscarriages as murder by God would view any death under any circumstance as murder by God. I suppose you could make that case, but you'd have to consult a wiser man than I. I don't buy it, myself. As I see it, humans die when killed by something else, or they die when their bodies fail on their own. God seems to let that system run pretty much unattended.

[beezdotcom]

God's plan is to throw adulterers, liars, homosexuals, thieves and all sin into the lake of fire.

In your post, you left out that God still loves these people, even though He hates their sin, and that's why He sent His Son as an intercessor for them. Just thought it was worth pointing that out.

[Rokke]

"I sometimes think, however, it is being used by many people (on both sides) as a "deal-breaker" issue for picking competent leadership, and I don't think that makes sense."

I'm not sure what you are referring to as "it". Do you mean gay marriage, or homosexuality?

[Indy Pendance]

Why is a woman charged with murder if she throws away her baby in a dumpster immediately after giving birth, when just hours before, an abortion is perfectly alright?

Gays are forcing their beliefs on us through the courts. Most Americans could care less what they do in their own homes, forcing homosexuality on us and our children is against our Christian beliefs. The time will come when 'family planning' in government schools will have to explain gay sex. I'm glad my kids are grown, because, I'd be homeschooling or sending them to private schools today. Even if I had to work four jobs to afford it.

[Zavien Doombringer]

Well, with out getting into a sermon, I thought I would just throw in the "clift notes" version...

The questions being asked really didn't require an extensive explaination

[bayourod]

"How many DUhhhers do you think will commit suicide on election night? I'm guessing at least 2."

Wishful thinking, but they won't give up until the Supreme Court throws out thier last challenge.

[r9etb]

The problem with your post is that it tacitly assumes that the ideas of Right and Wrong have no actual meaning. Instead, you appear to be saying that issues of right and wrong are matters of differing opinion, that can and should be settled by negotiation, and finding a middle ground between them. (You don't really believe this, by the way -- you're simply trying to finesse us into negotiating toward your notions of "right" and "wrong," to which you hold firmly.)

What this means in practical terms is that "right" and "wrong" have no meaning in the personal realm; and in the public realm they are matters of political debate -- the side with the most votes is "right."

While I'm sure you'd agree with me that "votes" do not equate to "right," in practice that's precisely what you're asking us to buy into.

We, on the other hand, recognize that "right" and "wrong" are real, and important concepts. We recognize that "right" is right, and "wrong" is wrong, no matter how many votes they get. Moreover, the vast majority of us believe that these ideas of "right" and "wrong" are not open to change. Most of us believe that what is truly "right" and "wrong" has been given to us through the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. And, of course, Western Civilization shows that Biblical morality has the added benefit of being demonstrably efficacious in terms of rights and benefits. It is beyond serious question that Western Civilization and the immense benefits it has brought, is built upon that Biblical moral foundation. Without Western Civilization, you, a woman, would very likely get as much respect as women who live in other cultures; that is, little, or none at all. So you, even more than I, owe Biblical morality a rather large debt.

I will assume that you do hold to some fixed ideas of "right" and "wrong." Were it otherwise, there would be no point in talking to you.

So when it comes to something like abortion -- which is nothing more or less than killing an unborn human child -- we can see that it is certainly "wrong." At the same time, we can certainly point out "hard cases," in which it might -- might -- be justified to take one life in deference to another.

However, the vast majority of cases of abortion do not qualify as "hard cases." Instead, they are at root performed for reasons of convenience. Death to one, for the convenience of the other. For example, "I must kill the child within me, because I am in college and want to graduate." That is an excuse of convenience -- not to mention utter selfishness -- and certainly not a "hard case."

Surely you, as a reasonable person, can see how we might find it evil for one person to kill another for the sake of convenience.

Almost worse than the act itself, however, are the outright lies and deceptions of those who are concerned with the so-called "right to choose." Their entire goal in life, it seems, is to obscure the fact I noted above: the abortion industry is primarily about killing one set of humans, for the convenience of another. They do this deliberately, and I have no qualms in calling them evil.

[biblewonk]

Perhaps you think we would be having a pro choice discussion if it weren't for the 19th ammendment.