Posted on 08/13/2004 9:36:00 AM PDT by IdaBriggs
Hello. I am hoping you can help me.
I am trying to "reach out" to your side of the world in an effort to help each side understand the other. I apologize in advance if I offend or upset any of you, because that is NOT my intention. I hope by putting my "real name" on this post, you will view what I am about to say in the sincere way I mean it.
I am somewhat frightened of you.
Again, I apologize if I am offending, but I thought you should know about it. I also know I am not alone in my feelings about you because I have talked with other people who feel the same way. We think you are trying to impose your religion and way of life on the rest of us.
I know most of you are good people. You are kind and generous with your friends, family and neighbors. You help strangers change tires, work as teachers, risk your lives in the service of others -- all things everyone admires, respects and honors. Those of us on "the other side" do the same thing.
But sometimes you talk in painful ways about “evil” as if to associate us with "demons" and "satan" because we don't agree with your path. That is very hurtful, and it makes us feel like you don't really see us as fellow human beings with different understandings of God. I am a gardener by hobby, and not always a very good one. My husband likes to tease me about "killing plants" instead of growing them because sometimes I over water or put too much fertilizer on them, yet every year I keep trying, and gradually, my garden is starting to become beautiful. I love roses in particular, and am reminded every day how wonderful God is because He made so many different kinds – I have three different red roses alone, and each one is perfect! I have seven different colors of Petunias, and use them to explain how God loves people of all colors to my neighbor's children. I guess that is why I believe you, who scare me so, really do have love in your hearts for all of us, even though sometimes it doesn't seem that way.
The worst times are when the topics of Abortion and Gay Sex come up. No one would ever force you to have an Abortion or indulge in Gay Sex in America EVER, yet you persist in making these topics of conversation as if they trump all other considerations. The only way I can reconcile this with a rational viewpoint is if I think you believe you are trying to SAVE those who don't believe the way you do from Hell. This seems to be a very loving action on your part, but feels rude and controlling in a not-positive way to the rest of us. Many of us do not believe these things will result in eternal damnation, but are simply part of God’s plan for each individual.
If you are truly horrified by the thought of these things, I don’t know what to say to make it easier for you to understand, but I will still try. I guess it would be like making everyone not wear jewelry or make up because some churches believe adornment is demonstrating vanity; it may end up being something we are all judged by, but it may also simply be a misreading or misinterpretation of the text. I am not saying your adherence to the tenets of your faith is wrong; I am saying other people have a right to love God in their own ways, and our civil laws should not be about defining “sin” but crime.
I say again, I am not meaning to offend. I have a very strong faith in God, and trust him to do the right thing. I don't like hearing people say that God is judging all of America based on who is President; both men have qualities worthy of admiration at some level, and both are interviewing for the job of enforcing our constitution. It demands we keep church and state as separate institutions so that we don't have wars in this country over religion (like they do in Ireland with Catholics and Protestants or in Iraq with Sunni's and Shiites). It demands I respect your right NOT to have an abortion if you don't want one, and NOT to indulge in gay sex if you don't want to, and to follow the teachings of your faith in the way you best understand them. It demands we all work "for the common defense, promote the general welfare and ensure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity" and on behalf of that, I am reaching out to you to find out how we can frame the debates on these things without heaping scorn and shame upon each other. No matter what the results of the November 2, 2004, election, I personally want all Americans to be proud of our country, and the way we run it.
I know I am already.
In Humble Sincerity, Ida M. Briggs
What does "DU" mean?
Democratic Underground. This DUer is apparently trying to start a civil conversation and I think we should let this person stay on.
Perhaps Ida, you need to realize that the pro-life people do not all necessarily want to take abortion away as a last choice option of a woman, but rather quite simply want the government to get the heck out of the business, legislation and involvement of abortion. It is because the Gov't is trying to 'legislate' in this area that we have it being used as last-choice for birth control, which gives us the RU42 'morning after' pill and the ghastly practice of partial birth abortions.
You think this is what God wants? Think again.
Further, if your 'people' are so loving, where is the tolerance in the Democratic party for those that feel as we do? Last I remember, any pro-lifers, as well as the boy scouts themselves, were booed out of the 2000 Democratic Convention. How do you square this with your 'let's all get alone' request?
Ida, you will not find a more loving party, that is more open to both sides, tolerant of all opinions, than you will with the Republican party and with Conservatives in general. We may argue and disagree but we work with, are related to and live with abortion, homosexuality and more just as you do. Different than the republican party, we actually have representatives in government serving our country that represents both sides in many of these issues. That is NOT the case with the DNC.
As far as homosexuality goes, you make some good points. I can understand why many may feel that 'God created me this way.' I don't agree with it, nor is it supported in anything but I do know that the lifestyle needs this belief to live anything close to a normal life, so it is understandable.
What you have to remember and not be in denial over is, that regardless of how difficult it is to change this lifestyle it is not impossible and people are doing it everyday. THIS is a fact that the homosexual community does not want the public to know. Homosexuality is NOT a 'civil right' nor is it a race, color or creed. It is a 'choice', period.
Society has shown that we have always had people that have made that choice, so perhaps we should make some allowances for that fact. Society has also shown that we will always have prostitution with us as well, so I am also somewhat approving of 'red light districts'. I am not speaking for all with my parallels here, but I do believe I am speaking for most when I say that we don't have to have these 'choices' shoved on us, at us, at our children, in our schools, in our churches, etc. If the 'gay community' really wanted to 'just get along', you would not see them 'acting out' in public sex displays, gay pride parades, promoting sexual orientation literature to children, defending NAMBLA, etc.
Ida, if you are sincere, you will find much more dialog, openness and acceptance on this side of the wall between democrats and republicans, liberals and conservatives, than you will on the other. You will not find the large percentage of hatred, name calling, rock throwing, election tampering, etc. But that all comes back to the real question ... is your post sincere.
"So if I said "I respect your right not to own a slave" would you recognize my "right to own a slave?" "
Exactly.
"So if I said "I respect your right not to own a slave" would you recognize my "right to own a slave?" "
Exactly.
Your giving your opinion that everything is okay as long as it doesn't effect you. Worthless!
By the way, do you work at Planned Parenthood?
What say you?
Ida, if it doesn't work out for you here, you might try Conservative Underground. You'll get lively reasoned debate, and won't be banned out of hand, unless you are a major disruptor. You can speak your mind there, but you had better be prepared to back up your opinion with some facts, or you will be flamed and made fun of.
Then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.
I have nothing against people who engage in homosexual activity; on the contrary, I have many friends who are gay and otherwise.
But it is not our place as a society, to codify and otherwise change the very socio-economic structure of marriage to suit the proclivities of gays.
I have no problem with the concept of civil unions, and what two committed monogamous people do in the privacy of their own homes is none of my business. And overall, I take a libertarian (little "L") viewpoint of it: it ain't the government's business, which means that the government has no business granting marriages to same sex couples. That being said, I also disagree with futzing around with the US Constitution. That is a document you don't fool with lightly, and this is a situation that where the encumbered powers are far better left to the states themselves.
I'm not even going to get into the spiritual-religious aspects of that discussion.
In any event, this ain't a dead horse that needs beating any more. At least not here.
Hang around a while Ida. You'll find we're not really the fire-breathing dragons we're portrayed over at DU, plus our language is better. For the most part we are civil and courteous with a few loud-mouthed exceptions. You'll not find obscene name-calling here like you do at DU, I post over there too and find the language abhorrent, and I spent 20 years in the army and have heard it all.
I'm willing to listen -- for now.
Why should MurryMom be the only token liberal nut on FR?
I heartily concur.
(I'm sorry, I replied once, but my on-line temporarily disconnected. I wasn't ignoring you.)
In answer to your question, my personal belief is that God is in charge of who gets born, and who doesn't. That means to me that any child who is supposed to be here -- regardless of contraception or not -- will be born. With respect to Free Will, all things work to God's greater glory, even when we don't understand them.
I have never had an unwanted pregnancy. I have miscarried three times, and it was only the strength of my faith that got me through those dark times. I do not believe an egg cell carries "half a soul" nor do I believe a sperm cell carries "half a soul" and I do not presume to know when God decides to "breathe" a soul into a child. I do know my lost ones are neither in hell or purgatory, because my loving God would NEVER do that to me.
By logic that views abortion as murder, that makes my miscarriages (which were acts of God) a crime by Him, and I * WILL NOT * believe that.
Oh, PS - my opposition to abortion isn't based on religious beliefs, and I really don't care about the gays one way or another - what other consenting adults do is none of my business.
Generally when one asks to start a dialogue, it is assumed they intend to participate. Do you?
I think she's been responded to adequately on what she's said by posters on this thread collectively. Now, we wait for her to reply.
Sounds like you have a serious case of "democratic, I can convince myself of anything disease".
You clearly have a twisted view of christianity. It is about freedom of choice, but not freedom from consequence.
God does not plan abortions.
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