Flash mobs in an armed populace ? (Vanity)

Self | 8/11/11 | Celerity

[Celerity]

Thank you for taking the time to read my Vanity post.

A lot of people here, and in my face-to-face world, have mentioned that the mobs, riots and looting that is occuring around the world would take a different path here in the US, in areas where people are allowed to carry firearms, and use them in accordance with both laws and sensibility.

And it's the Sensibility portion of that I would like to discuss.

Everytime I measure and imagine (Simulations!) my response to violent flash mobs or rioters, I come up snake eyes. Here are two of such scenarios that I play out in my mind:

#1 I'm in my local convenience store, buying .. i dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes and gasoline. Suddenly the front door swings open and the place is rushed by 10 or more teens who are screaming, destroying the store and running out with items.

#2 I'm dropping off some things at the post office to mail out. Say, I dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes. An orchestrated attacks begins throughout my downtown area. 50, 100, 200 people start throwing rocks through windows, molotov cocktails, bricks, porn mags or stale cigarettes through store windows, setting fires or what-have-you.

We have heard around these parts how the outcome would be different were an armed populace involved. Well, "Here I am" . Now what ?

At what point in these events will it be both legal, and importantly: Prudent to present a firearm ? In the convenience store example, I have seen as few as 3 people cause so much ruckus that a knife was drawn and a kid was stabbed almost instantly. The kid didn't even know he was stabbed in the chaos. In the riot situation, Hiding or just leaving is the important decision, but are there scenarios that change that play ?

I see innocent people being hurt in riots all the time. But when is it time to draw a firearm and use it? I don't see the immediate danger to myself (Unless I'm the target of the protest, such as at a Union rally).

Help me connect some dots and make a correct decision.

Thanks !

-> Steve

[The KG9 Kid]

Here's answers to your scenarios as I understand them, based upon my state's laws and my own personal discretion:

#1: You need to remove yourself from the vicinity of smash and grab looters at the convenience store. Unless you were directly violently threatened with bodily harm, you cannot draw or brandish your firearm. You cannot 'stand your ground' when the property you're standing on is not *your* ground.

#2: This riot scenario of yours brings questions: Are you in your own vehicle? A car is considered a 'domicile' in my state and you can defend your wheeled castle from being attacked violent thugs: They're not attacking your chariot, they're attacking you personally. You would be justified in preventing someone from committing a violent crime -- Arson, in this case -- if you encounter someone throwing Molotov cocktails even if they're not directly attacking you. If they're attacking what you believe to be an occupied structure with firebombs, you'd be justified in shooting them until they stop. You could also launch missiles at those whom you see committing Mayhem and Great Bodily Harm to persons, but not simple Assault/Battery. Other than these cases, you'd best be leaving the area if the brigands are running through the street smashing shop windows and overturning vending machines.

[Clay Moore]

“i believe that if i potentially need more bullets than what are loaded in my gun, i’m in a situation that i should not draw it”

Or do you shoot until you empty all available magazines figuring that if the pile of bodies does not deter them, about all they can do is pistol whip you?

[KrisKrinkle]

“Never, ever pull a gun, rifle or weapon unless the situation necessitates its use...”

“I have carried & used weapons in combat.”

Are you saying that in combat you always kept your rifle slung from your shoulder and your pistol holstered till you knew the situation necessitated “its use”? You never carried in your hand(s) because the enemy might be around the corner or in the trees you’re scouting out, and the situation only might necessitate its use?

[Mat_Helm]

I would be with my neighbors out front with the M1 Garand slung locked and loaded and with the 1911 ready as well. The wife would have the Remington 870 primed and in a lawn chair near the front door.

If anyone showed up with a Molotov cocktail the .22-250 loaded to ludicrous velocity with Hornady Vmax 155 grain ballistic tip bullets that explode on target contact into nothing but bits of energy annihilating what they hit and the bullet itself, would be employed out to accurate ranges within and beyond 300 meters with minute of angle accuracy to shoot the flaming cocktails out of the hands of the rioter, instantly becoming a vaporized air-burst weapon of mass destruction against the very person carrying it with only a flaming streaker and broken glass left around. It would look something similar to this:

[KrisKrinkle]

“Rule number 1:

NEVER PULL A GUN UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO USE IT

Rule number 2:

READ RULE NUMBER ONE AGAIN”

It follows that it's better for a woman to be found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, than for her to be found in a police station explaining to the police how she scared off her attacker with a gun she wasn't prepared to use to shoot him.

I know, I know, it would have been better for her to have shot him. But not everybody has it in them to shoot someone. That shouldn't deny them the right to do whatever they can to avoid harm short of actually shooting.

[Doomonyou]

Sounds like you need to stay away from Porn mags and stale cigarettes.

[JoeFromSidney]

I long ago decided that if I were in a store or restaurant, and a robbery took place, I'd stay out of it unless the robber(s) looked like they were going to hurt someone. Theft is between the proprietor and his insurance company. I don't see that a "flash rob" changes things any. I might draw my weapon and keep it out of sight, just to shorten my response time, but that would be the extent of it.

In the event of a riot, with people throwing things, burning buildings and cars,and so on, my reaction would be to get out of there as quickly as possible. I'd shoot anyone who looked like a threat to my life or health, or that of anyone in my party, but again that's it.

If the rioters were to attack my home, I'd consider that a threat to my life and health. I'd shoot without hesitation at anyone throwing something at my house, or who came over my property line.

Would such responses on the part of large numbers of people deter rioters? I don't know. I hope we don't have to find out. However, my attitude is, I don't want it, but I don't fear it.

[Doomonyou]

If the rioters were to attack my home, I'd consider that a threat to my life and health. I'd shoot without hesitation at anyone throwing something at my house, or who came over my property line.

Ditto.

[Darren McCarty]

1 I'm in my local convenience store, buying .. i dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes and gasoline. Suddenly the front door swings open and the place is rushed by 10 or more teens who are screaming, destroying the store and running out with items.

If I don't own the store, I'm going to find my way to the door with one hand my gun, not drawn, ready to deal with any situations.

#2 I'm dropping off some things at the post office to mail out. Say, I dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes. An orchestrated attacks begins throughout my downtown area. 50, 100, 200 people start throwing rocks through windows, molotov cocktails, bricks, porn mags or stale cigarettes through store windows, setting fires or what-have-you.

Any molotov cocktails or bricks flying at me will put me in fear for my life. I'm looking to get home. I will do what I have to do to get there. That can be taken any way one wishes.

[Darren McCarty]

.22-250

Nice. I have a Weatherby chambered for that.

[ronnie raygun]

The populace must confront the police chief and give him fair warning if he and the mayor do not address this matter we will be taking matters into our own hands.

[KrisKrinkle]

Well, "Here I am" . Now what ?

I've read a lot in this thread about defending others or their property, or not doing so.

Here's how it might go.

If you are attacked, defend yourself with your firearm.

If it's your store or other business being attacked while you are there, you are in danger of attack so defend yourself with your firearm.

If it's someone else, or their store or business, defense is up to them (with some exceptions).

If you are asked why you did not come to the aid of some one else, you say something along the lines of "They should have had a firearm themselves if they wanted 'defense'".

Pretty soon, more people will be providing for their own defense and won't need others to come to their aid. (I've read that as it stands more and more people are buying guns and getting concealed carry permits.) When that happens, the rioters will be at increased risk of getting hurt when they "put people in reasonable fear". When that happens, most of them will stop. Of course some of them will come back with weapons of their own, but that will probably constitute something other than a riot.

[BwanaNdege]

Good differentiation!

Brandishing is definitely what I had in mind as being the wrong course of action. Think barney Fife. :-)

Thanks for stating it better!

[BwanaNdege]

On patrol, the situation necessitated that I have my weapon ready. However, the safety was usually ON and finger was OFF the trigger.

On patrol in a war zone, you are looking for people to kill.

Inside 1st Division perimeter, the weapons were holstered or slung, magazine out, chamber empty.

Airwinger in Post #29 makes an excellent distinction between “showing” a weapon and “brandishing” one. think of Barney Fife waving his pistol, or all these idiot criminals in movies and TV shows who incessantly wave a pistol.

[OneWingedShark]

Interestingly, it is against the constitution for the fe[d]ral government to infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms, period.
Furthermore, it is a felony for them to try to ENFORCE such a ‘law’ as 18 USC 242 “Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law” is quite broad in what it defines as ‘color of law.’

“Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States [...]” — http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/718/usc_sec_18_00000242——000-.html

Note that there is no exception, it states ‘whoever’ which can [and MUST] include even the Justices of the Supreme court.

[LibLieSlayer]

Quite a bit of knowledge in that line! Thanks for bringing it out.

LLS

[LibLieSlayer]

If you are not prepared to shoot an attacker, then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to carry a gun. It is not a pacifier... it is a lethal tool and tools are meant to be used... not looked at. NEVER pull a gun unless you are prepared to use it... because the person that you confront may have the will to use a gun and will take it from you and use it. I am not saying that one must use a gun if they have it... or even if they do pull it. I am saying that one should NEVER pull a gun out... ever... under any circumstance... unless as a last resort... and then only if you are prepared to use it.

LLS

[TheOldLady]

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[TEXOKIE]

bttt

[cracker45]

What’s with your obsession with porn mags and stale cigs?

JC