Was Jesus really born on December 25th?

A Newt One ^ | 12/18/08 | SonlitKnight

[SonlitKnight]

For years now, I have been convinced of the accuracy of December 25th, 1BC, as the birthdate of Jesus Christ, if not actually, then very close.

Although I fully admit I cannot prove it, I believe I can make a compelling case for it, using Scripture and other sources.

First, the Scriptures tell us that Jesus ministry began when He was about 30 years old, in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar- about AD 30. Give or take 3 years for ''about 30'', and Jesus age in 30 AD was between 27 and 33. His ministry lasted about 3-3 1/2 years, we could conclude that His death, about Tiberius' 18th year, and during the tenure of Pontious Pilate, had to have occurred around 33-34 AD. However, the Scriptures tell us that He died on a Friday, immediately preceding the Passover. 30 AD and 33 AD are the only years possible. Since His ministry lasted at least three years after 30 AD, April 3rd, 33 AD is the only possible date for the Crucifixion of Jesus.

Interestingly enough, many learned Scripture scholars insist that a prophecy from the 9th chapter of the Book of Daniel, affixes the date of the death of the Christ on exactly that date.

Going back to our approximate age of Jesus in AD 30 as between 27 and 33, His approximate age at death would be 30-36. This places His birth between 3 BC to 3 AD.

For Jesus to have been born after 1 AD would make it impossible for Him to have been born during the reign of Herod the Great as the Scriptures tell us He was. So we now have about a 4 year span of when He could have been born.

This entire range would have allowed him to be born under Herod the Great, be about 30 in AD 30 (Tiberius' 15th year) and to have died under Tiberius Caesar, Herod Antipas and Pontious Pilate.

The clincher is the Bible's proclamations that Caesar Augustus had ordered a Census while Quirinius was acting as Governor. The only possible date that places Jesus birth under Herod the Great, Augustus, Quirinius and a census is between the years 3BC to 1AD.

This likely places the year of His birth at 3BC-1AD, his age at Tiberius 15th year at 30-33 and the age of His death at 33-36, in 33 AD...... pretty much as the Church calendar prescribes.

Now that we have established an approximate year of Christ's birth, what would establish a date?

We start with Luke Chapter 1;

5THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years. 8And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, 9According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. The Course of Abia would have served twice in the temple, in June and then again in October. If it were the June service, Elizabeth would have been in her sixth month in December when the angel Gabriel visited Mary and She conceived. This means that in cold December, Mary would have traveled-alone- in to the hill country to visit her cousin. This is highly unlikely, even more unlikely than the much objected to sheep in the fields.

This would have meant John the Baptist would have been born in March, with Jesus birth coming in September. Plausible, but I feel unlikely.

There are two reasons.

1) The large crowds suggested surrounding the service of Zechariah suggest the October service which would have coincided with the feast of Tabernacles. Large crowds would have been unlikely in June.

2) Climate. Using the assumption that December is too cold for the sheep to have been in the field, watched by Shepherds, actually serves to highlight a very compelling argument that that is exactly where they would have been.

As this chart indicates, September in southern Israel is still hot and very dry, while December is very comfortable and the hills are lush with grass and vegetation, beyond the city of Bethlehem after 3 solid months of rain. The grass in the hills in September is parched and barren after 4 dry months.

Smith's Bible Dictionary, under the heading 'Palestine: the Climate', explained the rarity of snow in southern Palestine, while it conceded its more frequent occurrence in the northern parts of the land. The mean temperature at Jerusalem during December is said to run around 47 to 60 degrees F. It certainly would not hurt sheep to be out at night in that sort of temperature. The Dictionary further states:

"As in the time of our Saviour (Luke 12: 54), the rains come chiefly from the S. or S.W. They commence at the end of October or beginning of November, and continue with greater or less constancy till the end of February or middle of March, and occasionally, though rarely, to the end of April. It is not a heavy continuous rain, so much as a succession of severe showers or storms with intervening periods of fine bright weather, permitting the grain crops to grow and ripen. And although the season is not divided by any entire cessation of rain for a lengthened interval, as some represent, yet there appears to be a diminution in the fall for a few weeks in December and January, after which it begins again, and continues during February and till the conclusion of the season."

It may be noted that the traditional date for the birth of Christ falls in this period of the diminution of rainfall toward the end of December.

The former rains would have produced grass on the hills, and the fine bright weather intervening between the rains, with temperatures averaging 55 degrees F. would be excellent for sheep grazing on the hills east of David's royal city.

SOURCE

In fact, the very argument used to impugn the December birth argues against the June birth!

If we are to believe a fall/winter trip from Nazareth to Bethlehem (about 90 miles) by Joseph and Mary by donkey is implausible, how then can we believe that Mary traveled 85 miles to see her cousin Elizabeth, on foot, by herself? Is it reasonable to conclude that Joseph would have allowed such a trip?

Logic seems to dictate that the Course of Abia in question was in fact, in October. This would, like the climatological data, place Christ's birth near the end of December.

To me, the weight of scriptural evidence and logic leans toward the end December, rather than September birth. Yet, is there more evidence? I would argue that there is.

The mysterious scriptures concerning the star that led the Magi to Jesus are a great point of conjecture. The scriptures are elsewhere, silent on this star so we can only guess based on what we know.

1After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

3When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born. 5"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written: 6" 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'"

7Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him."

9After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. 12And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route. The Escape to Egypt 13When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." 14So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

16When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. There are many astronomical events that some have tried to make fit the mold. For me, the most tantalizing is the fact that The planet Jupiter stood directly over Bethlehem on exactly December 25th, 2 BC

As tempting as it is, I don't want to use known astronomical evidence to buttress the case because, for all we know, maybe only the Magi saw the star.

The early church is the best indicator. Though Christmas detractors insist that the celebration of the Nativity did not exist until chosen by the church to supplant a pagan feast in the 4th or 5th century, this argument is simply untenable.

Celebration of December 25th as the Nativity is known to have dated back at least as far as 127 AD under Bishop Telesphorus in Rome. This would have likely been the very first fully post-Jesus generation in the history of the Church so second-hand knowledge of the Savior's birth would have been quite strong.

There are at least two early records of massacres that are recorded as having occurred on the ''day of the Nativity''. The first was reported to have occurred in the catacombs circa 161-180 AD and the second in 300 AD under the reign of the Roman emperor Diocletian.

During the time of Clement of Alexandria (220 AD), it was widely accepted as knowledge that Jesus was born on the 25th day of the month, although December was only 1 of 5 different months suggested.

Throughout the third century, it was commonly believed that Jesus birth coincided with the Winter Solstice. John Seldon would write, years later that when the Church was in it's infancy, the Winter Solstice fell on the 8th of the Kalends of January or, what we know as December 25th.

The Apostolic Constitution declared, still in the 3rd century, that the 25th day of the -then- 9th month was to be officially recognized as the birth date celebration of Christ.

Though none of these things alone (or together) prove the December 25th case, they do prove widespread existence of it's observance hundreds of years prior to the dates given by the conspiratorialists and unbroken, nearly all the way back to the time of Christ Himself.

Here are the facts.

1) The Biblical, logical and historical case argues much stronger, by far, for December 25th than for any other calendar date.

2) The argument that the date was invented out of whole cloth, solely to counter paganism (or adopt it) is patently absurd.

3) It makes for fun conversation but it will not decide your salvation.

~Sonlit

[Uri’el-2012]

please give your thoughts on this objection by foremost scripture scholar Fr William Most;

His bio tells a different tale.

The late Fr. William G. Most was one of the most distinguished Catholic teachers, theologians and Scripture scholars of our time. His long teaching career, extending well over 50 years, was marked by unswerving fidelity to the Magisterium of the Church, theological brilliance, and an ability to communicate clearly to layman and professional alike.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[briarbey b]

The world will weep and moan when they receive the revelation that their religious pagan holidays were a tribute to the spirit of the anti-christ...the one against Christ or the counterfeit Christ. We are so buried in our deception it is scary.

[Diego1618]

please give your thoughts on this objection by foremost scripture scholar Fr William Most.

I would not expect the good Friar to exhibit anything less than complete subservience to the position of Rome. This is from his page: The late Fr. William G. Most was one of the most distinguished Catholic teachers, theologians and Scripture scholars of our time. His long teaching career, extending well over 50 years, was marked by unswerving fidelity to the Magisterium of the Church, theological brilliance, and an ability to communicate clearly to layman and professional alike.

So....with that caveat.....

This is from: "SOLAR AND LUNAR ECLIPSES OF THE ANCIENT NEAR EAST" by M. Kudler: Neukirchen-Bluyn: Verias Butson and Bercker Kevelaer, 1971. A list of lunar eclipses: 7 B.C. none; 6 B.C. none; 5 B.C. Total Eclipse on March 23 at 8:30 p.m. and a Total Eclipse on September 15 at 10:30 p.m.; 4 B.C. Partial Eclipse on March 13 at 2:20 a.m.; 3 B.C. none; 2 B.C. none.

[Josephus, Antiquities 17:6:1-4] Just before the eclipse Herod sent ambassadors to Rome. Then, sometime during the next week there was a group of zealots, who stormed the temple and proceeded to chop down a golden eagle idol Herod had previously erected over the entrance of one of the gates to the Temple. Herod found out that Matthias the high priest was responsible for inciting the zealots to take such action. They thought Herod was dead. He wasn't and they were caught and punished. Herod's punishment for Matthias was this: He deprived Matthias of the high priesthood, as in part an occasion of this action, and made Joazer, who was Matthias' wife's brother, high priest in his stead. Now it happened, that during the time of the high priesthood of this Matthias, there was another person made high priest for a single day, that very day on which the Jews observe as a fast day (was the day of Atonement) the great day of expiation.....Yom Kippur".

The occasion was this: "Matthias the high priest, on the night before that day when the fast was to be celebrated, seemed in a dream to have conversation with his wife: and because he could not officiate himself on that account, Joseph, the son of Ellemus, his kinsman, assisted him in that sacred office. But Herod reprieved this Matthias of the high priesthood, and burnt the other Matthias, who had raised the sedition, with his companions, alive. And that very night there was an eclipse of the moon (Josephus 17:6:4). The night of that day they were burned, five nights after the dream, there was an eclipse of the moon. This was September 15, 5 B.C......Herod died after this eclipse and before the next Passover.

Continuing.........

[17:6:5] Shortly after that, Herod's distemper increased and he sought the help of the warm mineral baths at Callirrhoe, which was located beyond the Jordan river. It has been estimated he went there the week ending November 4th. There is no direct indication how long he was there, but for his funeral procession and burial to have transpired after the cold of the winter, he must have stayed there approximately eight to nine weeks. Then he went to Jericho, which has been projected to end the week of January 13th. And came again to Jericho, where he grew so choleric, that it brought him to do all things like a madman, and thought he was near his death, he contrived the following wicked designs. He then commanded the principal men of his government to come to Jericho, there intending to have them killed after his death. After his death, they were not killed. A few days later Herod received letters from Rome from the ambassadors. While this news was good, and seemed to revive him he nevertheless attempted suicide but was restrained by Achiabus. While still in this rage he ordered his son Antipater to be killed. Herod died five days later. When he had done these things, he died, the fifth day after he had caused Antipater to be slain, having reigned, since he had procured Antigones to be slain, thirty-four years; but since he had been declared king by the Romans, thirty-seven [Ant.17:8:1]. His death would have been approximately the week of February 17, 4 B.C.

Based upon this.......Herod died almost exactly 37 years to the month from the time of his coronation. He died after an eclipse and before a Passover. The one who succeeded Herod was Archelaus. He carried out the wishes of Herod for a long funeral procession and period of mourning before his burial. Including Sabbaths.....the time needed for this was approximately 25 days. This period ends in the middle of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, after the Passover, with the slaughter of 3,000 people by Archelaus. The March 13, 4 B.C. eclipse is wrong. It is obvious from the historical evidence that there was not enough time between a March 13 eclipse and the Passover of April for all of these events to have occurred.

[Diego1618]

I dispute your contention that the birth could not have occurred “around Christmas time”. All of the data EMPHATICALLY places the birth in late December. Your case for the year is at least compelling but your case for a September birth is very weak....basically consisting of your interpretation of John 1:14.

{John 1:14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Dwelt: 4637. skenoo (skay-no'-o) to tent or encamp, i.e. (figuratively) to occupy (as a mansion) or (specially), to reside (as God did in the Tabernacle of old, a symbol of protection and communion)

[John 7:2] Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand. Tabernacles: 4634. skenopegia (skay-nop-ayg-ee'-ah) the Festival of Tabernacles (so called from the custom of erecting booths for temporary homes)

It is really not my interpretation.....it is the Greek language. That is why it is proper to render [John 1:14] And the Word was made flesh, and tabernacled among us. To introduce the nature and mission of Christ, John employs in his writings the metaphor of the "booth" of the Feast of Tabernacles. He shows us that Christ....the Word who was with God in the beginning has manifested himself in this world in a way that we cannot mistake. "He has Pitched His tent among us"! Do you think maybe John was linking the birth of Our Messiah to the Feast of Tabernacles? Sukkot was always known as the season of Joy and the Feast of the Nations [Luke 2:10] And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Given the climate, September is simply impossible. In my view, that Jesus was born on December 25th is an issue of verified historical fact.

The winter months in Israel are similar to what we experience in the central valley of California. Very cold nights....sometimes below freezing with some snow flurries during December and January. September....on the other hand can still be very mild at night....definitely pleasant during daylight hours. To bring your pregnant wife, on the back of a donkey, many miles encompassing more than just a few days .....would not be considered harsh....necessarily during the Fall Festivals.

As far as being historical fact.....Pope Liberius in 354 A.D. was the first Pontiff to recognize any day at all....and December 25th had been selected. The first "Christ-Mass" was celebrated by Pope Sixtus in 435 A.D. and coincided with the existing Roman celebration of Mithras. This was done in an attempt to divert the populace from the popular pagan feasts already instituted throughout the Church/State Empire. For the first three hundred odd years from the resurrection there were no celebrations of Our Lord's birthday.

Origen had written early in the third century that "In the scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners who make great rejoicings over the day in which they were born into this world". (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1908 edition, Vol. 3,p.724, "Natal Day".)

For the first three hundred years after the resurrection nothing is mentioned about the Birthday of Our Lord. And, of course....in addition to early history being silent about it.....the Apostles did not recognize or celebrate the nativity as well according to scripture.

My calculations and figures regarding the death of Herod from post #92 are correct.....and The Lord was born during the last few months of Herod's life.

[SonlitKnight]

It is really not my interpretation.....it is the Greek language. That is why it is proper to render [John 1:14] And the Word was made flesh, and tabernacled among us. and yet,no Bible translation that I am aware of has rendered it that way...only you The winter months in Israel are similar to what we experience in the central valley of California. Very cold nights....sometimes below freezing with some snow flurries during December and January. September....on the other hand can still be very mild at night....definitely pleasant during daylight hours. To bring your pregnant wife, on the back of a donkey, many miles encompassing more than just a few days .....would not be considered harsh....necessarily during the Fall Festivals. So, Mary traveling ON FOOT, ALONE, INTO THE MOUNTAINS to visit Elizabeth is more plausible to you? As far as being historical fact.....Pope Liberius in 354 A.D. was the first Pontiff to recognize any day at all....and December 25th had been selected. The first "Christ-Mass" was celebrated by Pope Sixtus in 435 A.D. and coincided with the existing Roman celebration of Mithras. This was done in an attempt to divert the populace from the popular pagan feasts already instituted throughout the Church/State Empire. For the first three hundred odd years from the resurrection there were no celebrations of Our Lord's birthday. Absoultely absurd! December 25th was almost UNIVERSALLY celebrated as the birth at least 227 years prior to that, under Bishop Telesphorus. Further, a nearly unbroken line of celebration of December 25th can be seen from that point, with the Apostolic Constitution declaring it in the 3rd Century. What there is No evidence of...ZERO...is any mention of the Feast of Tabernacles coinciding with the birth. Even Josephus stated that it coincided with December 25th by tying it to the Solstice which fell on that EXACT day! The evidence for December 25th is overwhelming. In fact, it's basically airtight. For the first three hundred years after the resurrection nothing is mentioned about the Birthday of Our Lord. And, of course....in addition to early history being silent about it.....the Apostles did not recognize or celebrate the nativity as well according to scripture. Simply and demonstrably false, as I have already demonstrated My calculations and figures regarding the death of Herod from post #92 are correct.....and The Lord was born during the last few months of Herod's life No, your calculations of Herod's death are impossible, missing both the eclipse of 4BC and the one of 1 BC as well as the Census under Quirinnius. Augustus was to receive the great title of Pater Patriae on Feb. 5, 2 BC. So the actual governor of Palestine, probably Varus, would have had to go to Rome for the festivities, and since sailing on the Mediterranean stopped about Nov. 1, and did not resume until Spring, he must have gone in the early fall of 3 BC. But Quirinius was nearby, had just finished a successful war against the Homonadenses. So he was left as acting Governor. Luke does not use the noun governor, but the participle, "governing". So, even if Christ were born during the Feast of Tabernacles, 3 BC would be the earliest possible. All of the evidence...all of it....Scripture, the Star, the early church...all of it points to December 25th, 2 BC, with Herod's death occuring in January 1 BC. Your info regarding Christ's death actually would fit better, making him 32 at the time of His death rather than 35 under your scenario. As for His birth, it's a closed issue for me. December 25th, 2 BC. All other dates are simply impossible.

[SonlitKnight]

So, your position is borne, not so much out of legitimate Scriptural study as of blind, irrational hatred of Catholicism.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Please don’t comment on my threads any more....

[SonlitKnight]

Just makes me crazy. I try to get into a meaningful discussion about the birthdate of Christ and some want to use it as nothing more than an assault on Catholicism...
just incredible

[safisoft]

More than likely conceived on Channukah 6 BC, born Feast of Trumpets, 5 BC, visited by the Magi several months later, followed by death of Herod, April 1, 4 BC.

Dead on.

The dating of Zechariah's vision supports this. We are meant to know that the current "celebration" of His birth is at best a distraction. That is why the otehrwise meanlingless words regarding the order of Abijah are given.

Likewise, the redemptive calendar, lost to Christendom, supports this. Of course, nominal Christianity hates the idea of "their" Messiah being born on a "Jewish" feast day.

History supports this. The nonsense that Herod died in 1 BCE nearly made me choke. Herod (aka "the Great") died no later than 4 BCE. Astrological data supports this dating as well.

[safisoft]

I don’t think there is support for December 25. But there isn’t really any “dead of winter” in Israel. Today’s temperature for example is 71 degrees.

You clearly have never been to Israel in the winter. Although it is not like Connecticut, it is cold at night. In the Jerusalem/Bethlehem area average highs are in the 50s, and lows at night in the high 30s.

[safisoft]

Just makes me crazy. I try to get into a meaningful discussion about the birthdate of Christ and some want to use it as nothing more than an assault on Catholicism... just incredible

Easy target /sarcasm.

Hey, if you start a thread, and are dogmatic about **your** opinion, and provide nothing more than church doctrine that was meant to support a Fourth Century dogma, then get ready for comments...

[RetiredArmy]

It really does not matter to me when Jesus was born,

And THIS is all that matters. That He WAS BORN is what is important. This is just the recognized day from long, long ago. This was not invented so that department stores could make sales. What is important is that Jesus was born, lived, and died on the cross for us, to have a path to Heaven by Him. I don't care if he was really born on March 17th or something. That is not important too me.

[chicagolady]

Amen! Happy Birthday Jesus!

Merry Christmas Retired Army!

[RetiredArmy]

Merry Christmas too you and your family also. Are you in frigid Chicago now???? It is 19 here at my house this morning in NE Alabama. I need some of that global warming hoax to stop by and warm it up. High today suppose to be 37. NORMAL IS 53!!!!!!!!!!

[SonlitKnight]

Perhaps you need to learn to read. I provided FAR more than Church doctrine. In fact, I provided Biblical support and Historical support as well.

To then use it as a launching pad for ad-hominem nonsense, such as yours is beyond the pale. Why don’t you try countering the information provided?

Oh wait...we know why.

nevermind....

[chicagolady]

I am here in Fridged Chicago, kept warm by the thought of Corruption fighting U.S. Attorney Patrick Fiztgerald doing his job and sending dozens of CROOK COUNTY politicians to jail for a long time!!

[safisoft]

To then use it as a launching pad for ad-hominem nonsense, such as yours is beyond the pale. Why don’t you try countering the information provided?

LOL. Ad hominem. Your replies to Diego1618 are what?

The fact is, you provide no facts, just postulation and opinion. You discount scholarly research (the date of Herod's death is well established between 6-4 BCE).

[SonlitKnight]

Wrong. The date of Herod’s death is NOT established as 4-6 BC and I provided proof. Please come down off your high horse. Herod died in 1 BC according to one of the foremost Scripture Scholars.

[SonlitKnight]

Please re-post ANYTHING I have stated as an ad-hom.

[Diego1618]

It is really not my interpretation.....it is the Greek language. That is why it is proper to render [John 1:14] And the Word was made flesh, and tabernacled among us. Diego And yet,no Bible translation that I am aware of has rendered it that way...only you. Sonlitknight

Young's Literal Translation: [John 1:14] And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

Young's is a very accurate translation....although is is sometimes difficult to read in the English because of word usage, syntax, idioms etc. When they say "Literal"....it actually is!

[safisoft]

Sheesh. You need to chill. Continue you fanciful “research” on your own.