Posted on 12/18/2008 4:27:24 AM PST by SonlitKnight
I don't have a hatred of Catholicism....or of Catholics. I do believe them to be in gross error when it comes to the understanding of the Holy Scriptures.....but I don't hate anyone.
Please don’t comment on my threads any more....
I'm sorry....I will certainly comply with your wishes. I did answer one of your questions in my post #119 before I noticed my invitation to leave. For that, I am apologizing.
Thank you, savisoft, for your support....always.
no...you are the one that needs to chill.
‘’The world will weep and moan when they receive the revelation that their religious pagan holidays were a tribute to the spirit of the anti-christ...the one against Christ or the counterfeit Christ. We are so buried in our deception it is scary.’’
that is hatespeak....especially when injected into a very non-confrontational discussion of Christ’s birth date.
spin all you want, it’s hatespeak
Josephus is pretty incontrovertible evidence here. It is hard to find an encyclopedia that doesn't concede 4 BC as the date of Herod's death. And then there is this little tidbit from Wikipedia:
"The scholarly consensus, based on Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews is that Herod died at the end of March or early April in 4 BC. Josephus wrote that Herod died 37 years after being named as King by the Romans, and 34 years after the death of Antigonus.[10] This would imply that he died in 4 BC. This is confirmed by the fact that his three sons, between whom his kingdom was divided, dated their rule from 4 BC. For instance, he states that Herod Philip II's death took place after a 37-year reign in the 20th year of Tiberius, which would imply that he took over on Herod's death in 4 BC."[Ant 18:4]
That is hatespeak....especially when injected into a very non-confrontational discussion of Christ’s birth date. spin all you want, it’s hatespeak Post #123 by SonlitKnight.....to Diego1618.
You know.....I wasn't really going to respond here....but you obviously want to look more carefully as to whom is posting what. You have accused me, unfairly.... of having a "Blind, irrational hatred of Catholicism". I am beginning to resent the aspersions you are casting my way! You have invited me to leave your thread and I have indicated that I would comply....and apologized for any hard feelings that I may have caused....for whatever reason I cannot fathom.
You would do well to be more cautious in the future about your accusations as they are beginning to make you look silly. You seem to fly off the handle when put in a corner and cannot seem to offer an intelligent response. It is becoming doubtful to me that you are aware (at any given time) as to whom you are actually posting your comments to.
I was going to finish answering your incorrect comments on your post #105 to me (I already showed in my post #119 the silliness of your accusations about "Tabernacling" not being used in any translation of the scriptures)....but I just don't want to make you look any sillier than you already do!
Out of courtesy I am pinging briarbey b so he may initiate a defense of his post #102 if he desires.
Thanks for the ping Uncle Chip....but I’ve been asked to leave the thread.
Out of courtesy I am pinging briarbey b so he may initiate a defense of his post #102 if he desires.
****
HER defense would be... this is what SHE believes to be so.
Diego1618...what exactly do you think deception is?
Scripture states..in the last days “IF it were possible even the very elect of God will be deceived.” Do think that deception will come in the form of worldlyness or by the nature of religion???...which Satan masters very well.
There is nothing new under the sun....if you want to know where we are going...look where we have been.
ALL religion WILL KILL!! The very chosen people of God...Jews...and political Rome joined forces to crucify Christ. Don’t you see the magnitude of that???? The possiblities???? The probablities??? I don’t hate Jews...I love Israel...but if the religious of God’s chosen people can be deceived into not seeing the very Messiah they have watched, waited and longed for....then WHAT of us???
I've been asked not to address him anymore or post on his thread....so I guess this will be it.
God's blessings to you all.
Before you leave I was wondering if we might take up an offering for a set of encyclopedias or just a copy of Josephus's works to be sent to the Vatican Library, perhaps in the name of the late Father Willaim G. Most, who seems to have never had access to them.
My .37 cents is on its way! Good idea, Chip!
Therefore....this will be my last post.....just to clear the slate of all silliness.
So, Mary traveling ON FOOT, ALONE, INTO THE MOUNTAINS to visit Elizabeth is more plausible to you? (During the month of December......rather than riding on the back of a donkey during the month of September)
First of all....and bear in mind, Uncle Chip, this is not being directly pointed at you.......Mary was a young, healthy Hebrew girl, who was most assuredly used to walking where ever she went. The point in time of her visit to Elizabeth transpired directly after her being informed [Luke 1:39] that she was to bear The Son of God [Luke 1:26-38]. The town in Judea (verse 39) was not mentioned, other than the fact it was in the hill country. From Nazareth to Bethlehem it is about 55 miles....as the crow flies so the trip to the home of Zechariah and Elizabeth, conceivably....was shorter. Indeed she was pregnant at the time.....probably for a few days.....so her physical condition would not have interfered the slightest in her short trip.
It is no where mentioned that she traveled alone. She may have.....but it is doubtful since the roads were well marked and heavily traveled by all. She may have traveled with friends. She did stay with with Elizabeth for three months (verse 56) so her condition was still "early" for the trip home......and the weather was three months nicer! She may have even enjoyed the walk!
Absolutely absurd! December 25th was almost UNIVERSALLY celebrated as the birth at least 227 years prior to that, under Bishop Telesphorus.
From: The Popes: The lives of the pontiffs through 2000 years of history (Lopes A. The Popes: The lives of the pontiffs through 2000 years of history. Futura Edizoni, Roma, 1997). The book states that it is sponsored by the "Pontifical Administration, which has tutelage over the Patriarchal Basilica of St. Peter".
TELESPHORUS, ST. (125-136) Born in Calabria of a Greek family He prescribed fasting and penance in the seven weeks before Easter, thus initiating a practice that is still alive in the Christian world. He established that on Christmas eve priests could say three masses and he introduced the Gloria in excelsis Deo, which he himself may have composed, at the beginning of the mass.
But.......The Catholic Encyclopedia notes this about Christmas: Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the "birthdays" of the gods.
For those of you in Rio Linda.....this is called a CONTRADICTION!
And....to further substantiate this contradiction: Alexandria. The first evidence of the feast is from Egypt. About A.D. 200, Clement of Alexandria (Strom., I, xxi in P.G., VIII, 888) says that certain Egyptian theologians "over curiously" assign, not the year alone, but the day of Christ's birth, placing it on 25 Pachon (20 May) in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus (Martindale C. Transcribed by Susanti A. Suastika. Christmas. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume III. Copyright © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company. Online Edition Copyright © 2003 by K. Knight. Nihil Obstat, November 1, 1908. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York)
What else did Telesphorus do? The Catholic Encyclopedia notes this about him: Telesphorus is mentioned as one of the Roman bishops who always celebrated Easter on Sunday, without, however, abandoning church fellowship with those communities that did not follow this custom. None of the statements in the "Liber pontificalis" and other authorities of a later date as to liturgical and other decisions of this pope are genuine. (Kirsch J.P. Transcribed by Christine J. Murray.The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIV. Copyright © 1912 by Robert Appleton Company. Online Edition Copyright © 2003 by K. Knight. Nihil Obstat, July 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York).
This, of course, means that he may not have prescribed "fasting and penance in the seven weeks before Easter" either. But he may have implemented a Sunday observance. For additional proof that Telephorus did not come up with this "lenten-type fast", notice that it did not exist even as late as 190 A.D. according to The Catholic Encyclopedia: Some of the Fathers as early as the fifth century supported the view that this forty days' fast was of Apostolic institution...But the best modern scholars are almost unanimous in rejecting this view...We may then fairly conclude that Irenaeus about the year 190 knew nothing of any Easter fast of forty days...And there is the same silence observable in all the pre-Nicene Fathers, though many had occasion to mention such an Apostolic institution if it had existed. We may note for example that there is no mention of Lent in St. Dionysius of Alexandria (ed. Feltoe, 94 sqq.) or in the "Didascalia", which Funk attributes to about the year 250 (Lent. The Catholic Encyclopedia).
So.....did he.....or didn't he? I don't think we can trust the story.....one way or the other! Let's go by scripture. Christmas was not identified, authorized, observed or sanctioned by anyone in the New Testament. It is......therefore....automatically "Suspect"!
Further, a nearly unbroken line of celebration of December 25th can be seen from that point, with the Apostolic Constitution declaring it in the 3rd Century.
Balderdash!
What there is No evidence of...ZERO...is any mention of the Feast of Tabernacles coinciding with the birth.
This is why the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to give us the story of Zechariah's service in the temple [Luke 1:5-25] so we could figure it out!
Even Josephus stated that it coincided with December 25th by tying it to the Solstice which fell on that EXACT day.
I wonder what it Josephus was talking about here?
The evidence for December 25th is overwhelming. In fact, it's basically airtight.
When people are brought up in a culture that includes Fairy tales and fantasy surrounding the Word of God.....this is the natural tendency......to call these stories "Overwhelming, airtight evidence". You are taught these things from childhood and it is ingrained in your earliest memories. Your family has always participated in these festivities.....so it is quite natural to assume their validity. The problem, of course......always has been, they (Fairy tales and fantasies) are not scriptural and Our Lord, the early Church.....nor the Apostles observed, celebrated or participated in these activities.
No, your calculations of Herod's death are impossible, missing both the eclipse of 4BC and the one of 1 BC as well as the Census under Quirinnius. Augustus was to receive the great title of Pater Patriae on Feb. 5, 2 BC. So the actual governor of Palestine, probably Varus, would have had to go to Rome for the festivities, and since sailing on the Mediterranean stopped about Nov. 1, and did not resume until Spring, he must have gone in the early fall of 3 BC. But Quirinius was nearby, had just finished a successful war against the Homonadenses. So he was left as acting Governor. Luke does not use the noun governor, but the participle, "governing".
[Luke 2:1-2] And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) Governor: 2230. hegemoneuo (hayg-em-on-yoo'-o) to act as ruler/ be governor.
I had been informed right after my post #92 that my scholarship appeared accurate.....regarding the year of Herod's death. Now, all of a sudden it's all baloney again! Like you said, Chip.....maybe they need a new Funk and ChuckWagon over there and a copy of Joe. Ain't this fun?
Ahhh yes. Me and my faith are accused of supporting “antichrists” because we don’t agreee with a rather tenous case for Christ’s birth being linked to the Feast of Tabernacles
...and I am accused of being huffy.
LOL
Fair enough.
Merry Christmas, folks
It’s December 25th...in case you were wondering.
The Deeds of the Divine Augustus
By Augustus
Written 14 A.C.E.
"A copy below of the [35] deeds of the divine Augustus, by which he subjected the whole wide earth to the rule of the Roman people, and of the money which he spent for the state and Roman people, inscribed on two bronze pillars, which are set up in Rome......
"8. When I was consul the fifth time [29 B.C.E.], I increased the number of patricians by order of the people and senate. I read the roll of the senate three times, and in my sixth consulate [28 B.C.E.] I made a census of the people with Marcus Agrippa as my colleague. I conducted a lustrum, after a forty-one year gap, in which lustrum were counted 4,063,000 heads of Roman citizens. Then again, with consular imperium I conducted a lustrum alone when Gaius Censorinus and Gaius Asinius were consuls [8 B.C.E.], in which lustrum were counted 4,233,000 heads of Roman citizens. And the third time, with consular imperium, I conducted a lustrum with my son Tiberius Caesar as colleague, when Sextus Pompeius and Sextus Appuleius were consuls (14 A.C.E.), in which lustrum were cunted 4,937,000 of the heads of Roman citizens. By new laws passed with my sponsorship, I restored many traditions of the ancestors, which were falling into disuse in our age, and myself I handed on precedents of many things to be imitated in later generations....."
Perhaps we could take up another collection to pay for a bus ride from the Vatican to those two bronze pillars right there in Rome. Those fathers need to get away from their Peter bones out into the city of Rome more often.
Didn't you tell me that you had located them in Jerusalem. I know there has been much speculation about them being in Rome (in fact them even being there while they were part of a live body).....but I swear I remember you telling me you had found them in the Holy Land......in a tomb marked "Shimon bar Yonah".
If you're trying to finagle a trip for the good fathers all the way to the Holy Land out of the collection we're taking up -- Forget it.
BTW -- Did I get your 37 cents yet???
It's in the mail............
By the way.....can you hold my check til the first?
Sure, but you won’t get to write it off on this year’s taxes.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.