Posted on 08/24/2014 10:55:16 AM PDT by wmfights
so you think the 144,000 is a literal number also, oh boy. dispensationalism with a dash of Jehovah witnesses thrown in for good measure.
the answer is, the people of God = Israel = The Church.
In Revelations it explains that the 144000 are 12000 from each of 12 tribes, who have never slept with a woman, virgins...Israelites, it has nothing to do with how many people are saved or will be saved.
my dear friend, why Cardinal Koch thinks its a mystery how the Jews can be saved without explicitly confessing Christ is rather strange to me. all the dear Cardinal need do is read what Jesus Himself said on the matter in John 8:22-24
then he said to the Jews, will he kill himself since he says “where I am going you can’t come?”. He said to them, I am from above, you are of this world. I am not of this world. I TOLD YOU THAT YOU WOULD DIE IN YOUR FOR YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS UNLESS YOU BELIEVE THAT I AM HE”
so here we have a “cardinal” who assures us Jews are saved even if they do not explicitly believe in Jesus, but it’s a mystery to him BECAUSE HE HAS NO BASIS FOR THIS BELIEF other than to please man rather than God.
Jesus Christ declared just the opposite. Please note he was speaking to Jews and said they would die in their sin unless they believed he is the Messiah.
so much for all “Israel” being saved, huh?
as for showing the Jews mercy, you don’t show Jews, Hindus, atheists or anyone else outside of Christ “mercy” by lying to them.
you show them mercy by declaring they are sinners, in rebellion against God and the only way for their souls to be saved is to repent, believe the Faith and be baptized into Christ. anything else is from the devil.
an analogy about “mercy”. if you have a friend that is 5’6” and weighs 600 lbs and wants to eat 12 pizzas a day, 10 gallons of ice cream and 20 hamburgers, who is the friend who shows “mercy” to this individual -
1. the one who says go ahead, eat all you want, enjoy yourself ( which is what the friend wants to hear )
2. the one who says no, you are killing yourself and you need to go on a diet and exercise program? ( what he needs to hear )
who is showing mercy?
Textually in the Scriptures that makes no sense. Transpose your definition throughout the book of Romans. Change every reference to Israel and related names (Israelite, sheep of Israel, children of Israel, men of Israel, Jacob, Zion, etc.) to "Church." Continue with the rest of the NT books.
lol, it is not “picking and choosing” it at all. for 2,000 years, the Church has known since Jesus rose from the dead, national Israel has had the kingdom taken from them and instead it was given to spiritual Israel, a nation producing the fruit of it.
so when we read anything having to do with Israel and faith or salvation ( as in Romans 11 or Galatians 6 ), then we know we are dealing with spiritual Israel or the Church.
when we read anything to do with blood or nationality, then we know we are dealing with physical Israel.
“for not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel”
while there is “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16) meaning the elect,
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careful, another name for the elect is the Body of Christ or the Church......so to admit there is “the Israel of God” that is not national Israel should bring the dispensational wrath upon you, but since you don’t hold to the historical orthodox Christian Faith, you probably are safe.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
all the nations that do come against spiritual Jerusalem ( the Church ) will be destroyed on the last day, when Jesus comes again in judgement. this IN NO WAY is talking about the physical city in the middle east called Jerusalem, which is a type of the heavenly Jerusalem.
lol, the website you linked to doesn’t disagree with any of my nine tenants of dispensationalism.
where do you see the strawman? which tenant do you think is not believed by these people?
you had to have been taught the faith post VII.
one would think someone calling themself a “Catholic” would know there is national Israel, which is a “type” of the real Israel, which is the Church.
put away your 19th century John Darby beliefs and learn what the Church has taught for 2,000 years ( up until the VII disaster )
If one believes Jesus is the Messiah (and he is), one should concede that Isaiah 53 prophesied of him. If one accepts this premise one should admit that Jesus did not speak with guile nor deceive the people of Israel. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Jesus did not lie. He did not deceive. Historically the Gentiles took over the churches and all our history is replete with wars of a religious nature. The Jews were persecuted and slaughtered, for being Jews. So much evil has been done in Jesus' name; some Gentiles who professed to be Christians have poisoned the well so to speak. Not only that, we have the divine temporary blinding of Israel so that Israel cannot recognize Messiah. I completely trust God in this matter and make supplication to the Father in the name of the LORD Jesus Christ in full communion with Mary, mother of our Lord, who is God with us, as well as the Jewish Apostles (who love their brethren) and all the saints who have pleased God, for Israel, to show them mercy, for it is in the same mercy that we shall be saved. Blessed John Paul II and Cardinal Koch correctly perceive that the Jews are our elder brethren. Every Jewish baby is another branch from the same tree. For the promise is unto you, and to your children
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
the number 144,000 is not a literal number, but one in which represents
12 ( OT tribes )
times 12 ( NT Apostles )
times 1,000 ( represents the completeness of God’s plan )
equals 144,000
If one rejects VII, I suppose one can join Martin Luther. What really, is the difference between Martin Luther and any Catholic who rejects VII ?
If I had my way, if I had my way, if I had my way, I would tear this whole building down and be right with the Apostles asking our Lord to restore the kingdom to Israel. We must all persevere in faith, hope, and love, waiting for the glorious appearance of Messiah.
Historically the Gentiles took over the churches and all our history is replete with wars of a religious nature. The Jews were persecuted and slaughtered, for being Jews.
boy oh boy, where to start. first of all, there are no churches, this is the Church.
second of all, the Gentiles didn’t “take over” anything, in Christ we are all one, there is no Greek, there is no Jew.
here is a test for you, what did Jesus say in John 8 would happen to any Jew that did not believe he was the Messiah?
I do not know how much i conform to eschatological labels, which can vary within such, but since you are wrong what the historical orthodox Christian Faith is according to Scripture, versus Rome , and resort to straw men or propaganda, and or spitwads, you already had made the marginalized list of RC posters.
In any case, a good description the different views on this can be found by H. Wayne House in "THE FUTURE OF NATIONAL ISRAEL ", who states,
Dispensational theologians agree that Romans 11:26 refers to fu- ture, national Israel. They contend that in Romans Paul consistently uses the term to describe national Israel in contrast to Gentiles, and that Paul always uses the term to mean national Israel. 71 ... Dispensationalists then discuss when this national salvation will occur and to whom among the nations “all Israel” refers. - BIBLIOTHECA SACRA 166 (October–December 2009):
And RCs should at least be able to concur that the Lord's return awaits the recognition by all Israel, upon whom a hardening has come due to their "unbelief" toward Jesus.
That may be an answer, but it isn't to the one I asked you.
Again...who is the "wife of Jehovah" and who is the "bride of Christ"? They ARE two separate entities FROM Scripture, not one.
If you insist the "wife of Jehovah" is the same as the "bride of Christ", you will have to explain how Jehovah divorced his wife for infidelity - for going after strange gods - but who will be reunited and reconciled to her. Your problem will be how the bride of Christ is presented to him as a spotless virgin - never before married - if she was at one time his unfaithful wife. Take some time to think about this rather than a snappy, incoherent answer that doesn't answer at all.
Thank you. I agree, it doesn’t make sense.
you already had made the marginalized list of RC posters
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lol, what is double secret marginalized list?
________Dispensational theologians agree that Romans 11:26 refers to fu- ture, national Israel
those following the 19th century tradition of men called dispensationalism would be wrong. “all” can’t be limited to future anything and Israel in view is spiritual Israel, not national Israel.
the Lord can return at any time, and when He does, the sun will be darkened, the moon will stop give its light, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. It will be the day of the Lord, THE END OF THE WORLD.
As I previously showed, the one in the Bible who is the “the first and the last” , the one in the OT who is called Jehovah and in the NT Jesus, this being can only have one wife.
there is only one shepherd and one flock.
Jeremiah 32:38 “ and they shall be my people and I will be their God”
1 Peter 2:9 “but you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of out of darkness into his marvelous light”
the question is a very disturbing one to orthodox Christians as it seems to imply that Jesus Christ is not Jehovah God. I hope that is not what you are saying, but this is the craziness and heresy that those who follow the 19th century tradition of men ( Darby, so I guess “man” )called dispensationalism get into.
if there is any doubt, Jesus Christ is Jehovah God.
Thank you. I agree, it doesn’t make sense.
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to the 19th century dispensationalist and to those Jews who reject Jesus as Messiah, it doesn’t make sense.
but to those who believe the historical, orthodox Christian Faith taught and believed for close to 2,000 years, it makes PERFECT sense.
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