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Millennial Series: Part 10: The Historical Context of Premillennialism
Bible.org ^ | 1951 | John F. Walvoord

Posted on 08/24/2014 10:55:16 AM PDT by wmfights

While modern premillennialism depends upon Scriptural foundations for its apologetic and theological statement, it has nevertheless a significant historical context. It is regrettable that some historians have held low views of premillennialism, with the result that premillennialism has seldom had fair consideration in historical treatments of Christian doctrine. Liberals and skeptics surveying the evidence with theological indifference have often arrived at a fairer view of the evidence for premillennialism in history than those endeavoring to defend another millennial position.

It is hardly within the province of a theological study of premillennialism to include an adequate history of the doctrine. An exhaustive modern study of the subject remains for someone to undertake. Fortunately, the main issues are clear in even a casual study, and the significant evidence in relation to premillennialism can hardly be disputed by any scholarly sources produced to date. The evidence for premillennialism in the Old and New Testaments and in the literature and theology of the early church at least in its main elements is commonly recognized. It needs here only to be restated as forming the historical context of modern premillennialism. This testimony unites in one river of evidence that the theology of the Old and New Testament and the theology of the early church was not only prellennial, but that its premillennialism was practically undisputed except by heretics and skeptics until the time of Augustine. The coming of Christ as the prelude for the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness on earth in fulfillment of the Old Testament kingdom prophecies was the almost uniform expectation, both of the Jews at the time of the incarnation and of the early church. This is essential premillennialism however it may differ in its details from its modern advanced counterpart. Old Testament supports the premillennial viewpoint and that the Jews at the time of Christ held just such views of the Old Testament.

Amillenarians have followed two main routes to escape the logical result of this admission. The first has been to hold that a literal interpretation of the Old Testament was wrong. This is essentially the position of Hamilton quoted above. While he admits, “In fact, the Jews were looking for just such a kingdom to be set up by the Messiah in Jerusalem,”3 he continues, “Jesus Himself, in speaking of that whole idea said, ‘The kingdom of God is within (or, in the midst of) you’ (Luke 17:21), thus contradicting the idea that it was to be an earthly, literal, Jewish kingdom.”4 As he goes on to explain, the error in the premillennial interpretation is that they interpret the prophecies literally, just as the Jews did.

The other route followed by amillenarians is another expedient for disposing of the prophecies of the Old Testament without literal fulfillment. This line of thought is to admit that the Old Testament prophecies rightly promise the Jews a kingdom on earth as usually presented by premillenarians, but to cancel this promise on the ground that it was conditioned on faith and obedience. In other words, the promise will never be fulfilled because Israel failed. As Allis puts it, “…obedience is the precondition of blessing under all circumstances.”5 He goes on to argue that obedience is the condition for fulfillment of all God’s covenant relations, specifically the Abrahamic covenant, the Davidic covenant, and the Gospel of grace.6

These two lines of amillennial argument, are, of course, contradictory. One assumes that a literal interpretation is right but fulfillment is forfeited for disobedience. The other assumes that literal interpretation is wrong and therefore only spiritual fulfillment is to be expected. Amillenarians like Allis use both principles even though their respective premises nullify each other. It is plain that they are determined at all costs to dispose of these kingdom promises without being too particular as to what method is followed. Premillenarians hold, of course, that the promises are unconditional and to be interpreted literally, and that premillennialism as found in the New Testament confirms the premillennialism of the Old Testament in no uncertain terms.

Premillennialism in the New Testament

The answer to the amillennial objection to premillennial interpretation of the Old Testament is found in the New Testament in two principal forms. First, the expectation of the Jews for literal fulfillment of the kingdom promises is confirmed. Second, this confirmation proves that the Old Testament promises are unconditional as to ultimate literal fulfillment.

It has been noted that rightly or wrongly it was the universal expectation of the Jews that the kingdom promises would be literally fulfilled. What does the New Testament have to say about this expectation? In Luke 1:32-33, Mary is told by the angel, in relation to the child Jesus, “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” In view of the common Jewish expectation, how would Mary interpret such a prophecy? It should certainly be clear that she would consider it a confirmation of the literal interpretation and literal fulfillment of the Davidic covenant. She would naturally expect that her child Jesus would sit on an earthly Davidic throne. In spite of the disobedience of Israel in the Old Testament, and the long years in which no one sat on the throne of David, here was confirmation of the precise expectation common among the Jews. Did Mary for one moment hold the amillenarian view? Would she spiritualize this passage—the throne of David is God’s throne in heaven; the kingdom is a spiritual kingdom; Israel is synonymous with the church? Certainly not! It was totally foreign to her thinking. If the amillenarians are right, Mary was sadly deceived. The prophecy of the angel could hardly have been better worded to confirm the ordinary Jewish hope as well as the exact essentials of the premillennial position—the literal and earthly fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.

It is, of course, true that Christ taught much concerning the spiritual aspects of God’s kingdom. The Messianic kingdom on earth following the second advent by no means exhausts kingdom truth. The important point is, however, that whenever the precise kingdom promises of the Old Testament are introduced, these promises and their literal fulfillment are never denied, corrected, or altered, but are instead confirmed.

There is much positive evidence in the New Testament for premillennial teachings. It is clear that the Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their King and Messiah, not as their Savior, and in so doing fulfilled literally those prophecies dealing with His rejection and death. His rejection did not alter the kingdom promises, however. When the mother of James and John sought special privilege for her sons in the kingdom (Matt 20:20-23), her request was not denied on the ground that she had a mistaken idea of the kingdom, but rather that the privilege she requested was to be given to those chosen by the Father. Again Christ the night before His rejection and crucifixion told His disciples that they would sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel in the kingdom (Luke 22:29-30). In Acts 1:6, when the disciples wanted to know when the kingdom was going to be restored to Israel, they were not told that they were in error, that the kingdom would never be restored to Israel, but only that it was not for them to know the “times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power” (Acts 1:7). When Paul raises the question concerning the future of Israel, in Romans 9-11 , and considers the possibility of God rescinding His promises to them as a nation and casting them off forever, he exclaims, “God forbid” (Rom 11:1). The whole tenor of Romans 9-11 is to the point that while Israel for the present is cut off the olive tree of blessing, Israel is scheduled to be restored at the second advent, when the Deliverer will come out of Zion. It is expressly stated in this regard that “the gifts and callings of God are without repentance” (Rom 11:29), i.e., that God will fulfill His purpose regarding the nation Israel.

The book of Revelation is, of course, the classic passage on premillennialism. Revelation, while subject to all types of scholarly abuse and divergent interpretation, if taken in its plain intent yields a simple outline of premillennial truth—first a time of great tribulation, then the second advent, the binding of Satan, the deliverance and blessing of the saints, a righteous government on earth for 1000 years, followed by the final judgments and the new heaven and new earth. The only method of interpretation of Revelation which has ever yielded a consistent answer to the question of its meaning is that which interprets the book, however symbolic, as having its general revelation plain, one to be fulfilled literally, and therefore subject to future fulfillment.

One of the most eloquent testimonies to premillennial truth is found in the absolute silence of the New Testament, and for that matter the early centuries of the church, on any controversy over premillennial teaching. It is admitted that it was universally held by the Jews. It is often admitted that the early church was predominantly premillennial. Yet there is no record of any kind dealing with controversy. It is incredible that if the Jews and the early church were in such a serious error in their interpretation of the Old Testament and in their expectation of a righteous kingdom on earth following the second advent, that there should be no corrective, and that all the evidence should confirm rather than deny such an interpretation. The general context of the New Testament is entirely in favor of the premillennial viewpoint. The amillennial interpretation has not one verse of positive testimony in the New Testament and can be sustained ony by spiritualizing the prophecies of the Old Testament as well as the teaching of the New.

Extra-Biblical Premillennialism in the First Cenrury

The available evidence in regard to the premillennialism of the first century is not extensive by most standards, but such evidence as has been uncovered points in one direction—the premillennial concept. Peters in his classic work, The Theocratic Kingdom, cites no less than fifteen advocates of premillennialism in the first century.7 While his classification in some cases no doubt is debatable, in others it is undisputed. The notable testimony of Papias, who was associated with the Apostle John, is of special weight. Papias who lived in the first century and the beginning of the second lists as adherents of premillennialism Aristio, John the Presbyter and the Apostles Andrew, Peter, Philip, Thomas, James, John, and Matthew. He certainly was in a position to know their views, and his testimony is an important link in sustaining the fact that the disciples continued in the Jewish expectation of a kingdom on earth. Peters also lists as premillenarians Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Hermas, Ignatius, and Polycarp. In previous discussion of amillennialism, it was shown that the prevailing opinion of both amillenarians and premillenarians that Barnabas is premillennial in his views is fully justified. Hermas also is conceded by practically all parties as premillennial. In other words, there are clear and unmistakable evidences of premillennialism in the first century. Further, this viewpoint is linked extra-biblically with the apostles themselves. In contrast to these clear evidences, not one adherent, not one line of evidence is produced sustaining the idea that any first-century Christians held Augustinian amillennialism—that the interadvent period was the millennial. Further, there is no evidence whatever that premillennialism was even disputed. It was the overwhelming-majority view of the early church.

Premillennialism in the Second Century

The second century like the first bears a sustained testimony to the premillennial character of the early church. Even the amillenarians claim no adherents whatever by name to their position in the second century except in the allegorizing school of interpretation which arose at the very close of the second century. Premillennialism was undisputed for the first ninety years of the second century. Among those who can be cited in this century as holding premillennialism Peters names Pothinus, Justin Martyr, Melito, Hegesippus, Tatian, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Apollinaris.8 Of these Justin Martyr (100-168) is quite outspoken. He wrote: “But I and whatsoever Christians are orthodox in all things do know that there will be a resurrection of the flesh, and a thousand years in the city of Jerusalem, built, adorned, and enlarged, according as Ezekiel, Isaiah, and other prophets have promised. For Isaiah saith of this thousand years (ch. 65:17 ), ‘Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind; but be ye glad and rejoice in those which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem to triumph, and my people to rejoice,’ etc. Moreover, a certain man among us, whose name is John, being one of the twelve apostles of Christ, in that revelation which was shown to him prophesied, that those who believe in our Christ shall fulfil a thousand years at Jerusalem; and after that the general, and in a word, the everlasting resurrection, and last judgment of all together. Whereof also our Lord spake when He said, that therein they shall neither marry, nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal with the angels, being made the sons of the resurrection of God.”9

While even modern premillenarians might not accept the details of Justin’s interpretation, the notable fact is that he clearly states the essentials of premillennialism—the second advent, followed by a thousand-year reign and the separating of the resurrections before and after the millennium. Further, Justin declares that this view which he advocates is generally accepted as the orthodox view of the church. Peters accordingly cites the conclusion of Semisch in Herzog’s cyclopaedia, “Chiliasm constituted in the sec. century so decidedly an article of faith that Justin held it up as a criterion of perfect orthodoxy.”10

The testimony of Justin is by no means unsustained by others, as Peters shows. Pothinus taught his churches at Lyons and Vienne premillennial doctrine which was continued by Irenaeus his successor. Melito, the bishop of Sardis, is declared a premillenarian by Shimeall in his Reply, based on Jerome and Genadius. Tertullian is generally regarded as a premillenarian. Others are less certain but the evidence, such as it is, seems to point to their holding similar positions.

In general, the second century, then, has a similar testimony to the first. All characters who have anything to say on the subject are premillennial and this is set forth as the orthodox opinion of the church. Those who may have denied it were classified as heretics, not simply for being opposed to premillennialism but for other reasons. The first opposition to premillennialism did not become vocal until the opening of the third century. Amillenarians and postmillenarians have not only no positive evidence in favor of their position but no evidence that there was even a reasonable minority in the church contending against premillennialism. Apparently no one of the orthodox Fathers thought of challenging this important doctrine in the first two centuries.

Premillennialism in the Third Century

In the third century premillennialism began its historic decline, and it is admitted by all that opposition arose to premillennial ideas. Opponents of premillennialism are found in Gaius, Clement, Origen, Dionysius, and others. The form in which the attack came consisted in the adoption of the allegorizing method of interpreting Scripture in a manner which is no credit to amillennialism. Rutgers, though a determined foe of premillennialism, analyzes Clement, for instance, as follows: “Clement, engrossed and charmed by Greek philosophy, applied this erroneous allegorical method to Holy Writ. It was a one-sided emphasis: opposed to the real, the visible, phenomenal, spacial and temporal. A Platonic idealistic philosophy could not countenance carnalistic, sensualistic conceptions of the future as that advanced by chiliasm. It shook the very foundations on which chiliasm rested. Robertson observed that ‘it loosed its [chiliasm’s] sheet-anchor,—naïve literalism in the interpretation of Scripture.’“11

It is not surprising that opposition to premillennialism should arise. All forms of true doctrine have opposition and even the majority view in the history of doctrine is not necessarily the right one. The point of great significance is the form in which the opposition arose. It was not the product of orthodox studies in the Scripture, nor of the application of tried and true hermeneutics. It was rather the subversion of the plain meaning of Scripture not only as applied to the millennial question but all other areas of doctrine. The church today with one voice condemns all of the early opponents of premillennialism as heretics. Opposition to premillennialism had its rise in the attackers of true Scriptural doctrine, and it was not until the time of Augustine (354-430) that one reputable adherent of amillennialism can be cited. The opposition of premillennialism in the third century is no asset to amillennialism. While amillenarians may hail the conclusions of the enemies of premillennialism, they accept neither the general method nor the theology of those who participated in the attack. Usually, like Allis, amillenarians abandon the early centuries as a lost cause and begin with Augustine.

The third century had its own continued witness to premillennialism, however. Among those who can be cited are Cyprian (200-258), Commodian (200-270), Nepos (230-280), Coracion (230-280), Victorinus (240-303), Methodius (250-311), and Lactantius (240-330). Some of these like Commodian and Nepos are undisputed premillenarians. Nepos early recognized the heretical tendencies of the Alexandrian school of theology, which was the first effective opponent of premillennialism, and he attacked them with vigor. Methodius is conceded as premillenarian by Whitby himself. It is clear, however, that a rising tide of opposition was beginning to manifest itself against premillennialism, and while the church managed to extricate itself from much of the other bad doctrine of the Alexandrian school, premillennialism became in time one of the fatalities. Premillennialism from the Third Century to Modern Times

All admit that premillennialism after the third century waned and lost its hold on the majority of the church. It was the time of the rising strength of the Roman Church. Both the theological and political atmosphere was against it. While there was a continued minority who held premillennialism both within and without the Roman Church, they were not very vocal and were quite ineffectual in continuing a strong testimony. The Reformers, while returning to true doctrine in many areas, accepted Augustine as the starting point for their theology, and for the most part accepted without much consideration his opposition to premillennialism. The fact that premillennialism was held by some fanatical sects did not give it much standing. It remained for the renewal of Scriptural studies some time after the Reformation to turn the attention of a large portion of the church again to the premillennial question. The last hundred years have brought premillennialism out of its partial eclipse, and among those who accept the inspiration of Scripture it continues to be an area of lively discussion. Most Bible institutes as well as some theological seminaries are today propagating premillennial truth, and scores of evangelical preachers, teachers, and missionaries, as well as widespread publications present premillennialism.

Modern Premillennialism

The general features of modern premillennialism are highly significant and need to be outlined before assuming the larger task of the analysis and defense of premillennial doctrine. Even a casual observer of the premillennial movement in the twentieth century can see certain important tendencies.

Infallibility of Scripture. Premillennialism is based on the thesis of the infallibility of Scripture. It stands or falls not only on the method of interpretation of Scripture, but also on the question of the infallibility of the Holy Scripture. For this reason, premillennialism is entirely confined to those who are conservative in their general theological position. Premillennialism has always been the foe of liberal theology and of unbelief in the Scriptures. It has often been attacked for this very reason. Much of the modern zeal of its opponents has not arisen in love for doctrinal purity, but in hatred of conservative Biblical theology. To be a premillenarian exposes one at once to all who have departed from conservative theology. Premillennialism remains a bulwark against the inroads of modern theology.

Literal interpretation. Modern premillennialism is dependent upon the principle of literal interpretation. Premillennialism is a result of the application of this method to Scriptural interpretation. It is accordingly the foe of modern liberal spiritualization of all areas of theology as well as the more confined spiritualization of conservative amillenarians. The literal method of interpretation is also vitally related to Biblical dispensationalism. The recognition of Biblical dispensations and the proper statement of dispensational distinctions is not in itself a method of interpretation but rather a result of a method—the application of the literal method. Anti-dispensationalists are always guilty of various degrees of spiritualization of Scripture. The dispensational method is the literal method. In this connection it should also be noted that extremes in dispensational distinctions do not have their rise in a more rigid literal method, but rather in the area of general interpretation. Extreme dispensationalism which divides the interadvent period into Jewish and Gentile churches, and makes much of the New Testament non-applicable to modern churches, is not more or less literal than ordinary dispensationalism. It is misapplication of the literal method rather than its proper use.

Evangelicalism. Premillennialism has been definitely an evangelical movement. While often charged with pessimism regarding this world and with “other-worldliness,” premillennialism has been a large factor in modern effective Gospel preaching. A premillenarian is usually a believer in the orthodox Gospel and an adherent of Biblical theology in all major areas. Premillennialism among other things has opposed legalism or the Galatian error as it exists today and has upheld the doctrine of grace both as the ground of salvation and as a rule of life for the believer.

Opposition to ecclesiasticism. Premillennialism has tended to be more independent of human and ecclesiastical opinions and more inclined to exalt the Scriptures and the guidance of the Holy Spirit as a basis for conduct. The modern tendency to exalt church programs often pursued in the energy of the flesh rather than in the power of the Spirit, and the trend to exalt submission to church authority rather than to the Holy Spirit have had no encouragement from premillennialism. Premillennialism has supported exegetical preaching, informal church services, the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and extemporaneous prayers in contrast to the ritualism, formalism, and mechanical tendency of modern Christianity.

Emphasis on prophetic studies. It is transparent that premillennialism has also exalted the study of prophetic truth. In contrast to the common neglect of even the essential doctrines of the second advent, heaven, hell, and final judgment, usually omitted from liberal theological preaching, premillennialism has focused the white light of careful investigation on Scriptural teachings concerning future things. Prophetic Bible conferences are inevitably premillennial in their doctrine. Neither amillennialism nor postmillennialism ever aroused much interest in prophecy.

Such is the historical context of modern premillennialism. Rooted in the Old and New Testaments, a product of literal interpretation, nurtured by the Apostles and the early church, eclipsed for centuries by the dark shadows of pagan philosophies and allegorizing methods of interpretation, emerging once more as a dominant strain in Biblical theology in these eschatological times, premillennialism is more than a theory, more than a doctrine. It is a system of Biblical interpretation which alone honors the Word of God as infallibly inspired, literally interpreted, and sure of literal fulfillment. It has stirred the coals of evangelicalism, created interest in Biblical study, and constituted a preparation of God’s people for the coming of the Lord for His saints. Premillennial truth has been an inestimable blessing to those who have received it. To them the Bible has become a living book to be interpreted in its ordinary sense. It is significant that the Bible study movements have usually been premillennial, and institutions which emphasize the study of the text of Scripture, as illustrated in the Bible institute movement, have often been an integral part of the premillennial movement.

The larger task of examining the foundations of Biblical premillennialism remains before us. The method of approach will be first of all general, then specific, and we trust with profit to the readers.

Dallas, Texas

(Series to be continued in the July-September Number, 1951)

This article was taken from the Theological Journal Library CD and posted with permission of Galaxie Software.

3 Ibid., p. 39.

4 Loc. cit.

5 Allis, op. cit., p. 33.

6 Ibid., pp. 32-48.

7 G. N. H. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, I, 494-95.

8 Ibid., I, 495-96.

9 Ibid., I, 480.

10 Loc. cit.

11 W. H. Rutgers, Premillennialism in America, p. 64.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: amillennialism; dispensationalism; johnwalvoord; millennialism; premillennialism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

That’s your opinion.


61 posted on 08/31/2014 12:56:59 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: CynicalBear
You are proving over and over again that you are ill equipted to debate the meaning of scripture.

It's not a strong suit of Catholics as they are never taught how to interpret Scripture since they are told they cannot and need someone to do it for them.

So they find canned arguments and try to present them as their own and quickly get tripped up as someone who does not really know what they are doing usually does.

62 posted on 08/31/2014 1:00:44 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: redleghunter
See above post, and while there is "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16) meaning the elect, Rm. 11, as shown here makes it clear that there is also the "natural branches" Israel, thus it is written that "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded," (Romans 11:7)

For "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." (Romans 11:25) But then God will reverse the curse, "And so all Israel [the natural branches coning to faith and joining the Israel of God as elect] shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away unGodliness from Jacob: (Romans 11:26)

But it seems some Caths do not believe this prophecy.

63 posted on 08/31/2014 1:08:15 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
I have serious doubts that you will grasp or understand but I will try just ONE time.

The Greek word that has been translated "all" means "all parts of" as in not just the 12,000 from the tribe of Judah (Jews) but representatives (12,000 of each) of "all" of Isreal will be saved. It is in reference to the separation of Israel.

64 posted on 08/31/2014 1:13:20 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: daniel1212

They need the allagory for their interpretations to seem (in their mind) to work.


65 posted on 08/31/2014 1:16:18 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: metmom

It’s obvious the CC has kept them from the guidance of the Holy Spirit for sure.


66 posted on 08/31/2014 1:22:42 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism; redleghunter; Iscool; wmfights; CynicalBear; metmom; boatbums; ...
What is your net worth, measured monetarily ?

dated 2006, but it gives one a ballpark figure with which to compare To be among the richest 10% of adults in the world required US$61,000 in assets, and more than US$500,000 was needed to belong to the richest 1%

I ask, not for an answer but, to demonstrate how one has not kept the words of Jesus and how there is no visible path into the kingdom of God for such a rich man, however otherwise obedient to the Gospel. Yet there is a way not visible to men.

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

"All the doctrinal decisions of the church are binding on a Catholic, including the Second Vatican Council and all its texts," Cardinal Koch said when asked if the SSPX would be expected to accept all the teachings of Vatican II. "The 'Nostra Aetate' declaration of the Second Vatican Council is a clear decree and is important for every Catholic," he added. ...
While Catholics profess that, in the end, all salvation will be accomplished through Jesus Christ, "it does not necessarily follow that the Jews are excluded from God's salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the son of God," the cardinal said. "That the Jews are participants in God's salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery."

67 posted on 08/31/2014 2:45:11 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism; redleghunter; Iscool; wmfights; CynicalBear; metmom; boatbums; ...
ok, here are major tenants of dispensationalism which we need to focus on to prove my statement:

This is the most absurd strawman I have ever seen: One doesn't get to define dispensationalism. It is already defined... and the tenets thereof can be easily found. If one cares to be taken seriously, one should start from a point where one is not just making things up.

68 posted on 08/31/2014 2:55:35 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism; redleghunter

That reminds me...have you figured out yet the answer to the question I asked back two or three series ago? You know, the one about the “wife of Jehovah” vs. the “bride of Christ”???


69 posted on 08/31/2014 2:57:30 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: daniel1212; redleghunter
For "blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." (Romans 11:25) But then God will reverse the curse, "And so all Israel [the natural branches coning to faith and joining the Israel of God as elect] shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away unGodliness from Jacob: (Romans 11:26)

Exactly right. Here, I think, is that very point:

Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Notice, This is all about Judah. The Jews. Whom we call Israel today. Not anyone else. Allegorize THAT.

70 posted on 08/31/2014 3:11:34 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: CynicalBear; one Lord one faith one baptism; redleghunter; Iscool; wmfights; metmom; boatbums; ...
I just showed you how what you think has little or no basis in reality. I am a "dispensationalist" and don't believe in your erroneous list. The rest of you post is based on your errors listed so is and should be disregarded [...]

I am not a dispensationalist, but I know plenty of them, and have argued often with them, and I agree with every bit of your statement.

71 posted on 08/31/2014 3:20:58 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Iscool
What is intriguing about that last verse is that the Catholic religion shows Israel no mercy whatsoever.

I continue to post referenced links showing the Catholic Church does show mercy to Israel. There are those who reject Catholic teaching but why would one listen to them as representative of the Catholic Church ? Does Victoria Osteen represent what you believe and teach in its essence ?

72 posted on 08/31/2014 3:29:12 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Therefore you must pick and choose what “Israel” depicts based on your theological approach. Some places for you it really means Israel and in some places not. How very consistent/s.


73 posted on 08/31/2014 3:30:11 PM PDT by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: wmfights
While even modern premillenarians might not accept the details of Justin’s interpretation, the notable fact is that he clearly states the essentials of premillennialism—the second advent, followed by a thousand-year reign and the separating of the resurrections before and after the millennium. Further, Justin

Back to the subject at hand: Thanks for posting this series. It's been a great run, with lots of really good debate.

One of the pointers that I look at (wrt agreement with the above) is the very numerous prophecies relating to the theme of the restoration of all things... It is a major prophetic component, dealing not only with Israel, but also with the whole of creation. It is this view that keeps me profoundly in the pre-millenialist camp. How can it all be restored if it is all to be destroyed at Har Meggido?

74 posted on 08/31/2014 3:42:46 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: af_vet_1981
I continue to post referenced links showing the Catholic Church does show mercy to Israel. There are those who reject Catholic teaching but why would one listen to them as representative of the Catholic Church ? Does Victoria Osteen represent what you believe and teach in its essence ?

I tend to not regard what the Catholic religion says but what the Catholic religion does...

We know the Catholic religion sides with the enemies of Israel, specifically the Palestinian muzlims and has since the creation of the Israeli Nation came to be...

We know that the Temple Mount which belongs to Israel is a major issue for the Catholic religion...The religion wants the Temple Mount for itself and is struggling politically to take over the Mount to supposedly benefit the 3 major religions as deemed by the Catholic religion...The list goes on and on...

75 posted on 08/31/2014 3:50:08 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: af_vet_1981

From your posts and from my Catholic upbringing and education it seems to me the Catholic church gives its members wide latitude on this topic.

But you would not know that coming to FR.


76 posted on 08/31/2014 3:56:55 PM PDT by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: roamer_1

Great point.


77 posted on 08/31/2014 5:21:08 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: roamer_1
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3199071/posts

You might want to look at Part 11

78 posted on 08/31/2014 5:23:03 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: redleghunter
From your posts and from my Catholic upbringing and education it seems to me the Catholic church gives its members wide latitude on this topic.

Although there is a rich history of premillenial positions in the holy catholic apostolic church, as I have posted before, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that millenarianism cannot be safely taught. Here is another reference. Millenarianism (Chiliasm) * [Decree of the Holy Office, July 21, 1944] 2296 In recent times on several occasions this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely. Source of catholic dogma 2200-2300: Millenarianism (Chiliasm) 2296

This can be safely taught. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

79 posted on 08/31/2014 5:27:11 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: Iscool
We know the Catholic religion sides with the enemies of Israel, specifically the Palestinian muzlims and has since the creation of the Israeli Nation came to be..

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon called Pope John Paul II a "friend of the Jews" and "a man of peace" who would be remembered for working for reconciliation among peoples.

Sharon expressed the country's condolences at the death of the pope during the opening of the weekly Cabinet meeting April 3.

"Pope John Paul II was a man of peace and a friend of the Jewish people…who worked for a historic reconciliation between the peoples," said Sharon.

"Yesterday, the world lost one of the most important leaders of our generation, whose great contribution to rapprochement and unity between peoples, understanding and tolerance will be with us for many years," Sharon said.

The prime minister said he was fortunate to have met the pope in 1999 while serving as foreign minister, and at that time he invited him to visit the Holy Land for millennial celebrations.

"At my meeting with him, I felt the pope's warm and admiring relations toward the Jewish people and the state of Israel," Sharon said.

The pope's visit to the Holy Land in 2000 when he was already 79 years old and sick brought hope for peace to Israelis and Palestinians, but six months later the intifada broke out, enveloping the region in more than four and a half years of violence, which the pope often lamented.

Opposition leader Shimon Peres called the pope a "true spiritual leader whose leadership extended beyond his traditional flock and believers, embracing the entire human family."

"He imbued the world not only with the spirit of greatness but also with a good spirit," said Peres. "The pope embodied the best that is within all mankind as well as the commonness of humanity. He united all of our hearts through his actions and his courage. Wherever he went, Pope John Paul II brought with him the gospels of love, hope and peace."

Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom, and possibly President Moshe Katzav, will represent Israel at the pope's funeral later this week, according to Israel Radio.

"John Paul II will be remembered as someone who showed his believers new paths to interfaith reconciliation and brotherhood," Katzav said in a statement.

"The Jewish people will remember John Paul II as someone who courageously stood up and put an end to a historic injustice when he officially disavowed the prejudices and accusations ... against the Jews that had multiplied in Catholic Church writings and among its believers," Katzav said.

Shalom said in a statement that the pope's "visionary drive" helped establish full relations between the Vatican and Israel.

Rabbi Ron Kronish, director of the Interreligious Coordinating Council in Israel, said the establishment of diplomatic ties created a whole new attitude of respect for the Catholic Church among Israelis, despite the difficulties and rough points in that relationship.

"Certainly most of the current Jewish leadership has met with the pope at one time or other and had great regard for what he has done (for Jewish-Catholic reconciliation)," he said.

80 posted on 08/31/2014 5:34:32 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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