Posted on 08/24/2014 10:55:16 AM PDT by wmfights
Certainly. Rather than Israel only referring to the church, the Israel of God, it also refers to unconverted Jews collectively both before the church and after Pentecost, and which are promised a future collective repentance
now everyone can see why it has been like pulling teeth for any dispensationalist to define “Israel”
the answer is RIDICULOUS.
all one need do is read that definition again and then put that definition into:
Romans 9:6 “ for not all who are descended from Israel belong to ISRAEL”.
well, if Israel is collectively all the unconverted Jews before the Church and after Pentecost, than Paul is wrong and all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.
next let’s stick that definition into Romans 11:26 “ and so all Israel will be saved”
Ok, so all the unconverted Jews, which comprise Israel will now be saved.
but then further on in the answer Joan Rivers is not called Israel, but as far as we know, she was an unconverted Jew who lived after Pentecost, which according to the definition given would make her “Israel”.
I hope everyone can see why no one believed this before the 19th century.
You are so off base on everything you post that I would appreciate it if you would take my name off your ping list. I choose not to even begin with any discussion with as it would simply be folly and a waste of my time.na
you pinged me in #245, so I assumed you were interested.
I will respect your request and pray for you.
You continue to display why so many RCs are incapable of understanding Scripture when it refutes them, or admitting it, as rather than denying that "Israel" can refer to all the unconverted Jews as well as the church, Paul is showing that it can.
Again:
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. (Romans 9:31)
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (Romans 10:1)
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. (Romans 10:21)
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Romans 9:3-4)
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (Romans 11:7)
Are you still blind to the fact that these are unconverted Jews. but called Israel?
Ok, so all the unconverted Jews, which comprise Israel will now be saved.
What lunacy, or desperate denial, as you have been told tol more than once this only refers to Jews who convert.
Meanwhile you continue to refuse to admit that your denial that the Lord's coming awaits his recognition by all Israel, for a hardening has come upon part of Israel in their unbelief toward Jesus, and that this full inclusion of the Jews will be in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles being saved, is a denial of your own CCC. (674) .
Until you admit this then you have relegated yourself to the "not fit to be responded to list." and will not take up more of my time. Sometimes i think the job of some RCs is to do just that, though it often exposes their sophistry.
you have the last word.
It seems you assume what is there (in National Israel as it exists today) is a finished work - Methinks thou doest assume too much... Even as Christianity assumes it is already the bride of Messiah, not understanding betrothal... Legally considered true, but technically, still in the works.
“and I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them in also, and they will heed my voice. SO THERE WILL BE ONE FLOCK, ONE SHEPHERD”.”
Again, assumes this too is a finished product. If it were finished, there would be but one flock right here right now, in this physical realm. While that is certainly predicted, and certainly WILL happen... No one can suggest it is true now. And it would be instructive to ponder the parable of the bridesmaids...
Jesus says what will determine if someone is in the one, holy flock is not Hebrew DNA, but rather do they heed His voice.
That isn't precisely true. First of all, 'Hebrew DNA' would have to be defined: The first influx of Gentiles happened in the exodus, and has been ongoing ever since. Even the bloodline - Joseph's descendants are half-breeds Half of Judah are half-breeds. Secondly, there were twelve tribes at the foot of Sinai - there are now extant and known, three. There is a massive shell game going on that we cannot even begin to understand - the only real evidence of Jewish or Hebrew ancestry comes from groups where the Cohenim are present.
And lastly, there are manifold evidences in the Prophets - Real, and lasting promises, which are not capable of being assigned to or through Messiah. Do not forget that He is their Messiah first and foremost. Without those promises being realized, there is neither a promise to us (If He doesn't keep his Word, then His promise has no value). Thankfully, I believe that YHWH will keep every_single_one of his promises, and that belief is what makes His promises to me so very true that I can bank upon them with every confidence.
Your view is myopic - it is about saving the Sons of Adam. That is what it has always been about. Do not boast against the branches.
those “dwelling in the cities” in the country called Israel, are they heeding the voice of Jesus? have they been cleansed of their iniquities?
Of course not - Neither is the church a 'spotless bride'. Works in progress. And Israel coming back to the land in unbelief is prophetically accurate - go seek it out. They await His revealing in a time of great trouble, when they will look upon Him whom they have pierced, and wherein He will save them out of their trouble, going before them in battle as in days of old.
and yes, when we heed the voice of the one shepherd, we are cleansed of our iniquities and become residents of the New Jerusalem, the true holy and beloved city.
You forget, Jerusalem is coming DOWN HERE.
unfortunately, what we have in assuming national Israel as an “unfinished work” is trying to justify pre conceived notions to the Scriptures, rather than letting the Scriptures reveal truth.
for example, Ezekiel 36:33 says “on THE DAY I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited.”
notice it says it will happen the same day. if this verse were talking about national Israel and 1948, we would see the Jews in Israel on that day proclaiming faith in Jesus and being baptized into his body. we see nothing of the sort, in fact just the opposite. the people living in the country called Israel are quite opposed to Jesus Christ and His Church.
further if national Israel was in view in Ezekiel, 39:28 states “I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore”, meaning every Jew in the world would be in Israel. obviously this hasn’t happened at all.
my view isn’t myopic, it lets the NT shed light on the OT and it lets the Bible tell us who “Israel” is and not what non-Christian thinks it is.
Eze 36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. Eze 36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. Eze 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
No, it says 'In the day', not 'on the day'... To follow your reckoning, not only would they suddenly be cleansed, but on the very SAME DAY, the cities would suddenly be inhabited, and the fields would suddenly be tilled, suddenly popping up green and verdant 'like the Garden of Eden'... ALL in the same 24 hr period. Now, while my God is certainly capable of that, that isn't how it works.
And such an expectation does not harmonize with all of the other prophecies that speak to the restoration and reconciliation of Judah, as a reasonable study of that subject would indicate: They return in unbelief, they are saved from the 'Time of Jacob's Trouble', and their Messiah is revealed... THEN they believe.
further if national Israel was in view in Ezekiel, 39:28 states “I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore”, meaning every Jew in the world would be in Israel. obviously this hasn’t happened at all.
Well of course not - Zeke 38 has to come first. So it hasn't happened YET... But we are getting close. Thereafter, IMHO, AFTER the 7 years of purifying the whole land, THEN is when this whole prophecy will kick into high gear.
my view isn’t myopic, it lets the NT shed light on the OT and it lets the Bible tell us who “Israel” is and not what non-Christian thinks it is.
Yes it is, and that is precisely why. Without beginning in Torah, one will miss all the variables that are defined therein. Without an Hebrew understanding, one cannot possibly see it coming.
And we will see, you and I.
Well laid out. Thank you.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.