Posted on 08/24/2014 10:55:16 AM PDT by wmfights
1. I have a rule that never fails - when engaged in debate, when your opponent can’t correctly state what your position is, but instead must “mis-represent” it, you know they have lost the debate. a good example is when Catholics are accused of worshipping Mary, the saints, statues, bread, etc. etc. or that we worship 3 Gods. when someone says that, you know they have no confidence in their position and MUST resort to strawmen or falsehoods ( or they just aren’t that bright and don’t understand the Christian Faith )
2. that said, it makes a HUGE difference to the D if the Church is Israel or “replaced” Israel. if it didn’t, why not state the position correctly? the answer is, if indeed there was a “replacement” than there are TWO peoples of God ( the Church and Israel ), whereas if the Church IS Israel, there is only One people of God. ( as in one flock, one olive tree, one wedding etc )
3. here is an analogy to explain Israel:
think of Israel like Major League Baseball prior to Jackie Robinson. membership in MLB was restricted based on race ( being white ) white people are like national Israel. the commissioner of MLB is like Jesus Christ. Gentiles are like non-white players. so up until 1949, the Commissioner of MLB restricted members to white people, but in 1949 decided to switch and open MLB up to anyone based on ability. Ability is like Faith. so in 1949, MLB was now comprised of whites and non-whites, based on ability and not race. It is still MLB, still same Commissioner, only now the players are not only just white, but non-white as well, BASED ON ABILITY. but some pre-1949 white players objected to MLB baseball being opened to non-white players and refused to play MLB anymore. in fact, they started a different league and continued to restrict membership to the white race rather than ability. they called their league MLB as well, so to the general public it appeared there are TWO MLB leagues. but to the Commissioner, there is only ONE legitimate league and one league that is an enemy of the true MLB. now the Commissioner allows anyone from the other league to play in the true MLB, but they have to agree that ABILITY ( faith ) should determine membership and not race.
so as in the above analogy, we must look at Israel not from man’s perspective, but from God’s.
God has made a NEW, EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH ISRAEL and it is based on FAITH in Jesus Christ and his once for all blood sacrifice on the cross. NO ONE who rejects this FAITH is in ISRAEL.
4. there is a hardening towards Christ by physical Jews, but God did not do this to anyone who would have been a believer without the hardening. that is what your article implies when it states God always kept a faithful remnant. except in this case, it seems you are saying He is keeping an unfaithful remnant until some time in the future, but in the meantime the 100 million or so Jews who have lived the past 2,000 years rejecting Jesus are condemned to hell without a chance due to this hardening. this thinking violates 1 Timothy 2:4. God only hardens those he knows through foreknowledge would not believe.
5.the belief that somehow national Israel will turn to Jesus and accept the Gospel in mass sometime in the future disregards the fact that Jesus cursed the fig tree ( national Israel ) and said it would NEVER bear fruit again. this prophecy has been born out by history as a small number have come to faith and been re-grafted into the olive tree, the overwhelming majority have not only rejected the Gospel, but have been active opponents to Christianity. I don’t think Jewish families still hold funerals if someone in their family converts, but they used to.
6. the Scriptures don’t say the blindness will be taken away when all the Gentiles enter the olive tree. it says it will last that long, i.e. until the end of the world.
7. when someone comes to faith in Jesus, the vail is removed. this has been happening for 2,000 years now.
8. you say the Lord’s return awaits his recognition by all Israel. THIS IS BACKWARDS. anyone in Israel is a believer and already recognizes Jesus, the sheep recognize the voice of the shepherd. the Lord’s return can happen any minute.
9. I am glad you agree the new everlasting covenant Jeremiah says will be made with Israel, has been fulfilled.
but what is not understood is the “land” promised is not some dirt in the Middle East, no the land is something far superior, that is the new heaven and the new earth. and Israel, that is those in Christ will inherit this land at His second coming. those who have Jewish DNA, but reject the new covenant in His blood are not Israel, they will not inherit anything except eternal separation from the ONE TRUE GOD.
it would be helpful to read Ezekiel 36:22-32 with spiritual eyes, in light of the NT rather than a first century Pharisee.
Daniel, I have been asking where one can find the 1,000 year millennial reign in Matthew 24-25, and have been unable to have someone point it out to me.
you seem to believe there will be a literal 1,000 year reign, rather than the 1,000 year reign happening today.
can you find it in Matthew 24-25, where Jesus describes the end times, his second coming and judgement day?
Yeah, I caught that too...
Catholicism is seen as holding to a form of "supersessionism " which designates the belief that the Christian Church has replaced the Israelites as God's chosen people. As can be seen, this includes different degrees of replacement theology. I am refuting the premise that this means the church has wholly replaced Israel as the inheritor of all the promises.
To be more succinct: supersessionism is an invention of the Roman church - It is their doctrine, and they are the progenitor thereof - It having only been borrowed into early Protestantism's foundations. It is not until the rise of Zionism, accompanied by a resurgence and awakening within the Protestants in the late 1800's that Replacement Theology began to lose it's footing, soon followed by the establishment of Israel, whose establishment set prophetic bells to pealing... Those clinging to supersessionism remain blinded to what is certainly happening right before their eyes, even as they have been for millennia.
It is Replacement Theology which has driven 'christian' antisemitism all that time, so IMHO, your statement above is all too polite - The Roman church does not merely 'hold to' Replacement Theology - They are historically the primary instigator and practitioner thereof.
Do deny that a hardening toward Christ by natural Israel has come?
Necessarily, I would suppose he must, lest the Jews would not be to blame - And if they were not to blame, then their innocent blood stains his religion, reeling in drunkenness from the golden cup.
But another point - For it is Israel that is blinded... If the Roman church is correct, and they are Israel, then it is THEY, admittedly, who are blinded! In that then, we should pay them absolutely no mind, lest we all fall in a ditch!
Which brings forth the last bit - It is an amazement to me that Replacement Theology only assumes upon itself the good things promised to Israel, heaping the bad things upon the Jews (hence 'christian' antisemitism), Thus it is THEY who promote the distinction, inherent within their doctrine.
Thus I find it disingenuous for the Romanists to accuse the Dispensationalists of that distinction, which in my mind, remains in Protestantism as a whole as an artifact of their (Romanist) doctrine of Replacement Theology... Even among Dispensationalists.
Indeed, ALL Israel is partly blinded, BOTH the House of Israel (Church) AND the House of Judah (Jews). It is the Dispensationalists who first cracked an eye open and began to see. Those who continue forward with eyes tightly shut, do so willingly and willfully.
The mention of a literal 1,000 year reign is clearly in Revelation 20. You seem to dismiss this.
I pointed out to you the Isaiah passages (many) of unfulfilled prophecies relating to the second coming of Christ and His reign on earth.
There are only two ways to handle Isaiah 61-65. Take the position it is a literal earthly reign or allegorize the passages to fit a theological approach. The danger in allegorizing is the fact the first 1.5 verses were literally fulfilled in the first advent.
On the day is a thousand years...Yes Peter literally wrote that and we should take this at face value. Peter’s statement is one of many paradoxes facing us when we endeavor to understand the thing only God knows. For example in scriptures we are told man has free will, yet we also see God chooses/elects. Just one example. Now for the atheist or skeptic they see a contradiction. We know better it is not.
From what scriptures do you derive we are in a 1,000 year reign now? Surely you are not referring to Revelation 20 as you seek others to provide another source for using such.
If you care to look at the Isaiah chapters the answer is there. All the elements of a righteous kingdom on earth before the New Jerusalem are there. This is why it is important to examine the entire revelation of God.
And more than that - what is the purpose of the Sabbath and the Jubilees? What is their prophetic significance? They intersect upon the thousand year reign... The thousand-year rest wherein everything is restored to it's rightful owner. The time of the 'Restoration of all things'.
The problem here stems first from the denial of Torah, which says the earth is forever... Anything having to do with 'destroying' the earth has to be within the context of the earth being forever - Else YHWH is made a liar, and His purpose in the Creation has failed, which cannot be so.
How can the righteous have their enemies be ashes under their feet? How is it that there are survivors of Har Megiddo?
You are doing a great job, btw...
We are not in any part of Revelation 20 today!
We are presently in the latter portion of the 5th seal.
Look up Psalm 83 and see what is about to happen to ISIS!
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>> “btw, under the literal historic method of interpretation, wouldn’t a day be a day and 1,000 years a 1,000 years?” <<
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Rejecting Peter’s most important revelation?
I thought you mackerel snappers loved Peter?
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From what scriptures do you derive we are in a 1,000 year reign now
Acts 2:29-36, Peter tells us Jesus is on David’s throne then.
this is confirmed by Hebrews 1:8.
Colossians 1:13 tells us the Son’s kingdom was in existence then.
1 Corinthians 15:25-26 tells us he will reign until all enemies, including death are destroyed at his second coming.
Revelation 20:5 tells us Christ is reigning now since it is before the second coming and end of the world.
Jesus is reigning from Jerusalem NOW, of course the Jerusalem in view is the REAL Jerusalem, which is above and is free. This New Jerusalem will come down from heaven.
Jesus’s kingdom is not of THIS world, but the fact that it is spiritual and not temporal, doesn’t mean it is any less real. Spiritual just means Faith is required to see it, that’s why the world doesn’t recognize it.
what verses(s) specifically in Isaiah do you see where Jesus will reign from earth rather than Jerusalem?
I will be offline til tomorrow ( date night ), but will see what everyone says tomorrow.
>> “Daniel, I have been asking where one can find the 1,000 year millennial reign in Matthew 24-25, and have been unable to have someone point it out to me.” <<
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Very poor exegesis!
Go to the beginning of the Olivet Discourse, and re-read the questions that the disciples asked Yeshua to answer.
They were not asking for an explanation of the Millennial kingdom, they had no idea about such a thing, they were asking when will what you told us begin to happen?
His explanation actually went beyond what they were looking for, which was the end of this current age.
You have to continue reading into chapter 25, at verse 31, is where the end of this age falls, and the description of the millennial reign was to come later by the pen of John.
It requires all of the word to tell the story, not just a few lines in one of the gospels.
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>> “Jesus is reigning from Jerusalem NOW” <<
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Boy are you in for an eye opener, when the Psalm 83 war begins to roll! That will be soon.
And then when Satan is booted from the throne room, and he indwells old prince Chuck, will you be taking his mark?
Will you be running in circles, trying to figure out what went wrong?
Here is a clue: Antichrist will show up on the mercy seat at Purim.
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How one can divorce Ez 36: 22-32 from it's context within the chapter is far beyond me... I would suggest reading on...
Do you believe God breathes life into every human soul which has lived?
Psalm 83...Sure does seem to fit. Right down to Assyria.
If you “literally” link the 1000 years mentioned in Revelation 20 as beginning in 1st century AD, then you would have to take the entire passage literally. Meaning the first resurrection is past. I have heard preterists make such a claim but in 70 AD.
Then you have already lost, as you basically began with defining dispensationalism as requiring they hold that "ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED" in Rm. 11:16 logically means all Jews will be are saved who ever lived or do will be saved even though they rejected Jesus and His offer of salvation.
This would indeed by a radical view, and requires treating dispensationalism as a uniform doctrine, while you also seem to require all who hold to the Lord's return awaiting His recognition by all living Israel/Jews, and the 1k reign of Christ to subscribe to your definition of dispensationalism. Why debate with such a sophist?
that said, it makes a HUGE difference to the D if the Church is Israel or “replaced” Israel. if it didn’t, why not state the position correctly? the answer is, if indeed there was a “replacement” than there are TWO peoples of God ( the Church and Israel ), whereas if the Church IS Israel, there is only One people of God. ( as in one flock, one olive tree, one wedding etc )
This also is based upon your insistence of what replacement must mean, while if the church has become Israel as an entirely redeemed community, then it has replaced the Israel of God which is called Israel as being a mixture of saved and lost. Thus Paul calls them Israelites,
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites ; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Romans 9:3-4)
Under your model there are no more Israelites, these effectively being replaced by always making Israel to refer to the church. Yet even the CCC states "Israel is the priestly people of God," (63: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm)
I could change the intro of my page to clarify the issue and which would take away your argument by semantical outrage, but the issue you deny and it basically addresses would remain, that the Lord's return awaits the recognition by all Israel, upon whom a hardening has come due to their "unbelief" toward Jesus.
the Commissioner of MLB restricted members to white people, but in 1949 decided to switch and open MLB up to anyone based on ability.
The analogy is faulty as the MLB always consisted of those (along with their bat boys) who were there due to a promise made to their father (the "National league") signified by a mark in their flesh, although only those who had their "ability" (faith) would get the world series ring. Later, under your model the Commissioner drafted foreigners with ability from outside this race, and reconstituted the old MLB by replacing the National league with the Abrahamic league, only made up by new creations, irrelevant of race, though a few from the National League were able to join them. The National League was rendered irrelevant except as a historical artifact.
But in reality after drafting foreign players the Commissioner yet loved all those in the National League due to their father, and promised to one day give them the ability to be in the Abrahamic league, having regard to his promise made to their fathers, and thus all under the name of major league baseball would be world champions.
there is a hardening towards Christ by physical Jews, but God did not do this to anyone who would have been a believer without the hardening.
What you deny is just what Paul has been leading up to from Rm. 9, that a judgment of blindness was placed upon the Jews overall after their overall rejection of Christ, and God opened to the door to the Gentiles. But which blindness shall be removed when the full number of the Gentiles are entered into the spiritual kingdom of Christ. The remnant of Jews that are now saved is a precursor of what is to come for all remaining Jews.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (Romans 11:7)
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (Romans 11:12)
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (Romans 11:15)
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Romans 11:25-26)
but in the meantime the 100 million or so Jews who have lived the past 2,000 years rejecting Jesus are condemned to hell without a chance due to this hardening. this thinking violates 1 Timothy 2:4. God only hardens those he knows through foreknowledge would not believe.
Even if you hold to the cause of election being according to foreknowledge, it is clear that men cannot be saved unless God draws, opens hearts, and grants repentant faith, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32; Acts 11:18; 16:14; Eph. 2:8) so that in conversion man does what he otherwise could not and would not do.
But God owes no man grace, or the same amount, and it is evident that men receive different degrees of grace, and are judged according to their response to such. Jews who are lost, like all others who are, were given the grace to acknowledge God, but did not continue on that light, and so their foolish heart was darkened.
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:21)
And as regards 1 Timothy 2:4, while the Lord's desire is for men to be saved, and thus the Lord wept over Jerusalem, yet this does not mean He must do all that He could do so save them, for even Sodom would have repented if God had granted them more grace. (Mt. 11:23)
Even if not granted "repentance unto life," by rejecting the light of conscience that man innately has (thus Gentiles by nature can do the things contained in the law: Rm. 2:14) then in essence one is rejecting Christ. The 100 million or so Jews who have lived the past 2,000 years rejecting Jesus will be condemned to hell along with even more Gentiles, but all in essence have rejected Christ by rejecting the light they did have and could have responded to. And eternal judgment is based upon what you did do, not someone else. You may protest that this is not fair since others received more grace, but that is faulting God for being gracious, as all are worthy of eternal damnation even if not realizing salvific grace.
.the belief that somehow national Israel will turn to Jesus and accept the Gospel in mass sometime in the future disregards the fact that Jesus cursed the fig tree ( national Israel ) and said it would NEVER bear fruit again.
Then if this represents Israel eternally, versus certain representing them as souls presently who were given grace but who turn back as in Heb. 6, then it mean Israel could never bear fruit, yet many Jews have been saved, thanks be to God.
But here you are contradicting your own church which plainly states,
The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus. Rom 11:20-26; cf. Mt 23:39. ...
"For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?" Rom 11:15.The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles", Rom 11:12, 25; cf. Lk 21:24. will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all". Eph 4:13; 1 Cor 15:28.
As a http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/replacement_theology.php states,
In 1994, the new Catholic Catechism made it clear that Scripture predicts a full conversion of the Jewish people to Christ in the end times (#674). And Augustine wrote,
It is a familiar theme in the conversation and heart of the faithful, that in the last days before the judgment the Jews shall believe in the true Christ, that is, our Christ, by means of this great and admirable prophet Elias who shall expound the law to them.
Elias the Tishbite shall come; the Jews shall believe; Antichrist shall persecute; Christ shall judge; the dead shall rise; the good and the wicked shall be separated; the world shall be burned and renewed. (City of God, book 20: cps. 29,30; http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.txt)
You are simply interpreting your church contrary to others, or are more Catholic than the CCC.
Some other Catholics even espouse a fuller evangelical view. Roy H. Schoeman of ignatiusinsight.com states.
Sometime before the Second Coming, two-thirds of the Jews in "the whole land" will be exterminated (Zechariah 13:8-9
–The Jewish nation will be reborn in a single day (Isaiah 66:5-8):
-Jews will be regathered to Israel from around the entire world.
—There will be a widespread conversion of the Jews. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it: "The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by 'all Israel,' for 'a hardening has come upon part of Israel' in their 'unbelief' toward Jesus" (Rom 11:20-26; Cf. Mt 23:39). [9] This has been the understanding ever since the Church Fathers
the Scriptures don’t say the blindness will be taken away when all the Gentiles enter the olive tree. it says it will last that long, i.e. until the end of the world. What? This goes beyond interpretation, as the text clearly states,
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Romans 11:25,26)
In context this teaches that as blindness came, so it will be removed, and "so" - in this way - all Israel shall be saved, just the opposite of this curse of blindness being perpetual.
when someone comes to faith in Jesus, the vail is removed. this has been happening for 2,000 years now.
Indeed, but the whole chapter leads up to the corporate veil being removed.
you say the Lord’s return awaits his recognition by all Israel. THIS IS BACKWARDS. anyone in Israel is a believer and already recognizes Jesus, the sheep recognize the voice of the shepherd. the Lord’s return can happen any minute.
Wrong; it is not backwards, but forwards, as this refers to the natural branches collectively hearing the voice of the shepherd before, at the hours of the Lord's return. And again as even your own CCC states,
The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus.
I am glad you agree the new everlasting covenant Jeremiah says will be made with Israel, has been fulfilled. but what is not understood is the “land” promised is not some dirt in the Middle East, no the land is something far superior, that is the new heaven and the new earth.
It is that, but the new heaven and the new earth Rv. 20 speaks of is preceded by the 1k reign of Christ, in which the Lord reigns in Jerusalem, ruling the nations (unbelievers who survived the tribulation) with a rod of iron,
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Revelation 19:15)
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. (Zechariah 14:17)
And in which believers have a part.
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:26-27; cf. Dan. 7:22)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (Revelation 20:7-8)
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:9)
it would be helpful to read Ezekiel 36:22-32 with spiritual eyes, in light of the NT rather than a first century Pharisee.
It would indeed be helpful to read Ezekiel 36:22-32 with spiritual eyes, seeing how it cannot refer to any known temple, in light of the NT which foretells the Lord's 1k year reign, rather than an old man "who will no more be admonished." (Eccl. 4:13)
The better question is how can one eliminate it from so many other places without spiritualizing away eternal punishment as well, and more. Yet this is not a salvific issue, and some disagreement should be allowed, except by those who are intractably committed to their own (or church's) opinion. Who tear at holy things in their arrogance.
As regards Matthew 24 this a prophetic utterance, in which i see tentatively see the Lord responding to "when shall these things be" by answering it in the context of "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
There is no 1k year reign of Christ in Mt. 24 because all that is described therein occurs before that. "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (v. 34) refers to the people who "shall see all these things" the Lord just described. (v. 33)
The 70 AD destruction is only a precursor of the complete fulfillment of the abomination of desolation. "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (2 Thessalonians 2:4) Who is not revealed until the day of Christ, with the believers "gathering together unto him" (v. 1) and all go to be with the Lord, (1Ths. 4:17) in the "the resurrection of the just," (Lk. 14:14; cf. Acts 24:15) "the resurrection of life," vs. the "resurrection of damnation" (Jn. 5:29) the "first resurrection," as separate from resurrection of the unjust by a 1k years:
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection . (Revelation 20:5)
This AoD sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God, did not completely occur in 70AD, nor with Antiochus Epiphanes of the 2nd century B.C., though like 70AD, it would seem to be fulfill it.
With a rebuilt temple "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet," (v. 15) does stand in the holy place as God, who "shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect," (Matthew 24:24)
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (2 Thessalonians 2:9)
As said, in my view "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (v. 34) would refer to the people who "shall see all these things" the Lord just described. (v. 33) And,
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Matthew 24:29)
This corresponds to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17;
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Which is at the end of the Tribulation, and which saints apparently then go with the Lord to the battle of Armageddon spoken of by Jude and John, and to be rewarded and sit in judgment:
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Revelation 19:14)
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14-15)
The resurrected saints are first rewarded according to their manner of workmanship in building the church, (1Cor. 3:8ff) and consequentially reign with but under Christ for a thousand years.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:4-5)
During which the devil is bound, this being the last condition in which man reveals his sinfulness, as while man first sinned in yielding to the devil, and later sin without law as well as under the law, and under grace, now he sins despite the devil being bound. (The elect will not sin in Heaven even if they can, as that is what the longed to be free from.)
After which the devil is loosed, leading an army which God annihilates:
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9) Then redeemed souls, who have already been rewarded with thrones, shall then judge both lost angels and men:
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1 Corinthians 6:2-3)
Like as the interval btwn the 1st and 2nd coming of Christ is not always apparent in all prophetic descriptions in the OT, or distinguish btwn the two in one place, (Isaiah 2:1-4; 25:8,9; 26:19; Psalm 50:3-5; Isaiah 66:5-16; Dan 7:13,14) thus lost Jews use such to reject Christ as being the Messiah, so this 1,000 year interval is not apparent in such prophetic summaries in the NT as Matthew 16:27:
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Likewise,
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (Matthew 25:31-32)
The Lord does separate the nations during His 1k year reign, for thus He rules over them as shown, but the final judgment occurs after that:
..they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired..And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Revelation 20:4,6,12)
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)
Finally, one can disagree on eschatology, but not on the necessity of having a day of salvation by coming to God as souls damned for their works - not saved because of them - and destitute of any means or merit whereby they may escape their just and eternal punishment in Hell Fire and gain eternal life with God. And with contrite heart have cast their whole-hearted repentant faith upon the mercy of God in Christ, trusting the risen Divine Lord Jesus to save them by His sinless shed blood. (Rm. 3:9 - 5:1) And thus such will follow Him.
i’ll bite, who is “old prince chuck”?
oh by all means, let’s read on all the way thru Ezekiel 37, where we find my servant David shall be king ( Jesus is reigning as King ) we shall have one shepherd ( Jesus ) we have the everlasting covenant ( the new covenant in Jesus’s blood ) his dwelling shall be with them ( Christians are the temple of God ) = all speaking of what God will do to show he sanctifies Israel ( the Church )
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