Millennial Series: Part 10: The Historical Context of Premillennialism

Bible.org ^ | 1951 | John F. Walvoord

[af_vet_1981]

boy oh boy, where to start. first of all, there are no churches, this is the Church.

That is odd. I read the NT and see all these books addressed to specific churches. I then find John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

About those 30,000 or so denonimations, sects, and churches, are they all the Church too ?

In any event there were historical churches that were primarily composed of male and female Jews, and which were effectively taken over by male and female Gentiles, slave and free. Of course in one's particular church they may not believe in male and female anymore after reading what Paul wrote and so have unisex restrooms ... and they may not have any children at their masses because there are no women left in the churches ...

here is a test for you, what did Jesus say in John 8 would happen to any Jew that did not believe he was the Messiah?He didn't. He was speaking to specific Jews, specific Pharisees These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come. 21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Notice he also said to these who did not receive his words, I know that ye are Abraham's seed. So we have Jews who are Abraham's seed, according to the word of the LORD, and do not believe Jesus' testimony at that time, and yes he spoke directly to them and told them they would die in their sins if they did not believe the Father had sent him.

[redleghunter]

LOL. Now you introduce JWs. Next time they knock at the door ask them. They think they are the 144k.

[roamer_1]

all the nations that do come against spiritual Jerusalem ( the Church ) will be destroyed on the last day, when Jesus comes again in judgement. this IN NO WAY is talking about the physical city in the middle east called Jerusalem, which is a type of the heavenly Jerusalem.

NO WAY. He is talking directly to Judah.

[redleghunter]

Ireneaus Against Heresies Book V chapter 35: 1. If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question]. For example: When the cities of the Gentiles shall be desolate, so that they be not inhabited, and the houses so that there shall be no men in them and the land shall be left desolate. Isaiah 6:11 For, behold, says Isaiah, the day of the Lord comes past remedy, full of fury and wrath, to lay waste the city of the earth, and to root sinners out of it. Isaiah 13:9 And again he says, Let him be taken away, that he behold not the glory of God. Isaiah 26:10 And when these things are done, he says, God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth. Isaiah 6:12 And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves. Isaiah 65:21 For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth, And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to you from God Himself. Behold, your sons shall come whom you have sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from your God. O Jerusalem, put off your robe of mourning and of affliction, and put on that beauty of eternal splendour from your God. Gird yourself with the double garment of that righteousness proceeding from your God; place the mitre of eternal glory upon your head. For God will show your glory to the whole earth under heaven. For your name shall for ever be called by God Himself, the peace of righteousness and glory to him that worships God. Arise, Jerusalem, stand on high, and look towards the east, and behold your sons from the rising of the sun, even to the west, by the Word of that Holy One, rejoicing in the very remembrance of God. For the footmen have gone forth from you, while they were drawn away by the enemy. God shall bring them in to you, being borne with glory as the throne of a kingdom. For God has decreed that every high mountain shall be brought low, and the eternal hills, and that the valleys be filled, so that the surface of the earth be rendered smooth, that Israel, the glory of God, may walk in safety. The woods, too, shall make shady places, and every sweet-smelling tree shall be for Israel itself by the command of God. For God shall go before with joy in the light of His splendour, with the pity and righteousness which proceeds from Him.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103535.htm

[Iscool]

so you think the 144,000 is a literal number also, oh boy. dispensationalism with a dash of Jehovah witnesses thrown in for good measure.

Of course not...It's a metaphor...It means just a handful...Since 144,000 is such a small number considering the whole, it just means a very small number, like 5, or maybe 8...Fish...It's talking about 5 fish...5, or maybe 8 fish are sealed on their forehead...Or it could be their wheels...The 5 fish are sealed on their wheels...

[redleghunter]

As Ireneaus opines in Against Heresies Book V chapter 30. Within the context of determining the name of antichrist Ireneaus (2nd century AD) discusses the second coming and righteous kingdom:

4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition, Revelation 17:8 as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Matthew 8:11

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103530.htm

[boatbums]

As I previously showed, the one in the Bible who is the “the first and the last” , the one in the OT who is called Jehovah and in the NT Jesus, this being can only have one wife.

Does your Bible have a bunch of redacted sections in it? When you read all those passages that have already been shown to you where Almighty God refers to the nation of Israel as his "wife", that He was in a covenant "marriage" with her, that she committed adultery by going after strange gods, that He gave her a bill of divorce, but would one day draw her back to reconciliation and be reunited and she would be His again, do you just black out all those passages???

You continue to avoid answering the REAL question because it doesn't jibe with your "theology". It has NOTHING to do with Jesus not being Jehovah incarnate - which I completely believe He is - it is about God's relationship with the ORIGINAL chosen people - those He has never forsaken and WILL fulfill His promises to. You can't seem to get your head around the Scriptural idea that Israel was the Wife of Jehovah (read the book of Hosea, for one) and that the "church" (NOT the Roman Catholic church, BTW) is the "Bride of Christ" and this in no way contradicts the deity of Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe that Mary was the "mother of God", the "daughter of the Father" and the "spouse of the Holy Spirit", do you deny this? If a human woman can be three different things to the ONE God, why do you reject that the Father has a wife and the Son has a bride? This is the very conundrum you Amillennialists run into because you simply cannot stuff all that you imagine has to happen into the WHOLE of Scripture and the plans GOD has preordained will happen. You have walked into a trap of your own making. Get out while you can!

[metmom]

so you think the 144,000 is a literal number also, oh boy. dispensationalism with a dash of Jehovah witnesses thrown in for good measure.

Hardly.

Just to clarify for the lurkers, who probably still have ears to hear.

There is no reason to not believe that the 144,000 sealed by God during the Tribulation is not a literal number, but they are sealed by God to preach during the Tribulation, that they might not be harmed during that time.

That is a far cry from the JW claim that only 144,000 will ever make it to heaven.

But if you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that, too.

[Elsie]

That is a far cry from the JW claim that only 144,000 will ever make it to heaven.

And, since there have been MORE than 144,00 JW's already; just WHY would ANYONE with half a brain cell would become a JW these days?

[Elsie]

 

If you have cable TV, there won’t be much on to watch.

 

 

 

 

If there isn’t much on to watch, you will answer your door whenever someone rings.

 

 

 

 

If you open your door, you will see mormons.

 

 

 

 

If you talk to mormons, they will trick you into “praying about whether something is true”.

 

 

 

 

If you rely on your feelings, you may become a mormon.

 

 

 

 

If you become a mormon, you will have to wear magic underwear!

 

 

 

 

If you wear magic underwear, people will immediately label you as a cultist.

... at your front door!

DON’T be a cultist!
Get DirectTV.

[Lee N. Field]

well, it seems like dispensationalists are a little uncomfortable when their beliefs are taken to their logical conclusions.

Yeah, I've noticed. When they can even hear what one is saying.

I finally sat down and read through the last half of wmfights' last sorry, weird thread. Conjectural emendation of conjectural Aramaic originals of NT texts -- really? Michael Rood -- really?

[redleghunter]

Something dartuser said in our series of posts to the preterists. If the theological approach, the entry argument is flawed so will the following premises and conclusions.

That is why many posting on these threads should catch up and actually read what Walvood defines as the Literal, Grammatical, Historical Methodology. Such an approach is not a 19th century machination but employed not only with the reformers but early church theologians. As I pointed out by posting Irenaeus.

[redleghunter]

Where did wmfights posit the works of Rood? Perhaps you are confusing other posters responding to the posted article.

I think you need to clarify as right now this is bearing false witness.

[CynicalBear]

>> to admit there is “the Israel of God” that is not national Israel should bring the dispensational wrath upon you<<

There is evidence in scripturen that would support the notion that the Catholic Church could at least be in part considered to resemble Israel.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[Lee N. Field]

Where did wmfights posit the works of Rood? Perhaps you are confusing other posters responding to the posted article.

wmfights did not. someone else did. his name the phrase " wmfights' last sorry, weird thread. " only indicated that he started that thread.

perhaps I was unclear. Perhaps not.

[CynicalBear]

You’re not coming close to answering boatbums question. Why not? Do you not understand the question or does the answers somehow refute your belief?

[redleghunter]

Thank you for the clarification. We should all read the posted articles as provided. Yes on any FR thread the OP cannot be made responsible for all the views and opinions of the responders.

[daniel1212]

i repeat, RCs should at least be able to concur that the Lord’s return awaits the recognition by all Israel, upon whom a hardening has come due to their “unbelief” toward Jesus.

[boatbums]

I think it’s the latter.

[CynicalBear]

I agree.