Posted on 08/24/2014 10:55:16 AM PDT by wmfights
here’s what we can say - when the last person who is elect ( be they Jewish or Gentile ) is in the Ark, i.e. Israel, i.e. The Church, i.e. the Body of Christ, then the end of the world will come and it will be the day of the Lord ( Judgement Day ). so all Israel will be saved.
please don’t confuse not agreeing with false teaching to not answering a question.
yes, some of the stuff is off the wall. the frustrating part is getting anyone to answer who is Israel in Romans 11. like nailing jello to the wall.
and do not believe Jesus’ testimony at that time
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this is truly a bizarre answer. are you saying that only the Jews Jesus was addressing in John 8 will die in their sins if they don’t believe he is the Messiah, and it doesn’t apply to any other Jews or Gentile that wasn’t within ear shot when the words were actually spoken?
and do not believe Jesus’ testimony at that time
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this is truly a bizarre answer. are you saying that only the Jews Jesus was addressing in John 8 will die in their sins if they don’t believe he is the Messiah, and it doesn’t apply to any other Jews or Gentile that wasn’t within ear shot when the words were actually spoken?
You didn’t answer the question.
It’s obvious. Israel, as in the 12 tribes from Abraham.
(You aren’t included.)
It was a bizarre question. The answer is truthful if one examines the text. It is a common error that readers make, to imagine themselves, or others, to be the heirs of certain scriptures. For example:
Now God may grant application of certain scriptures to others, so the answer to your further question is no. I neither add to, not take away from anything the LORD said. People have imagined many things misinterpreting the Scriptures. They imagined all Jews were guilty for the death of Jesus, but if is blood were truly on all Jews and their children then they all have the atonement. Jeremiah specifically prophesied that children were not responsible for their own sins. Then we have the folly imagining everyone is an Apostle with everything Jesus said to them directly applying. Then we have the folly of Gentiles imagining that they are a Israel and that God has a covenant with their land to heal it. Could 2 Chron 7:14 also apply to a Gentile nations ? Yes, as a secondary application. It is written to Israel, the nation called after God with the name he chose and For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Beware the doctrine of Baalam.
I have a question. How can a Catholic be in a state of grace if such a one publicly denies the Catechism, such as keeping the commandments, and denies Vatican II ?
first off, I am glad to read you accept the Lord Jesus Christ as Jehovah God. that saves me from having to prove that case, certainly when Jesus declared to the Jews in John8:58 “before Abraham was, I AM “, they knew He was revealing Himself as Jehovah God and they wanted to stone Him.
next, for any lurkers, I want to explain what Christians believe about God:
The Father is Jehovah God,
The Son is Jehovah God,
The Holy Spirit is Jehovah God,
but there is only One God.
The Father is not the Son, the Holy Spirit is not the Father, etc.
Three persons in One God.
next point I wish to make is Christians interpret the OT in light of the NT. Dispensationalists too many times either ignore the NT or interpret the NT by the OT.
next, the historic Christian Faith is able to harmonize all the Scriptures together, it does not pull a verse or two out of context and attempt to develop a doctrine around it.
so, with all that said, let’s look at why the dispensationalist teaching that the Father has a wife and Christ has a bride and these are separate and distinct people is WRONG.
The theory goes off the rails because it wrongly assumes that to quote you “ the Father has a wife”. No where in the OT DOES IT STATE THIS. The Dispensationalist has to do a shifty sleight of hand by first saying of course Jesus is Jehovah, but it’s the Father who has the wife.
As I previously stated, the Christian Church has always interpreted the OT, in light of the NT.
Does the NT support or allow this Dispensational theory that the Father had a wife? NO, absolutely not.
Jesus declared in John 14:6 “ I AM the way, the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father but by me”.
God is a holy God, he can’t be in a personal relationship with sinful men. Sin separates man from God. The marriage metaphor shows how close the relationship is, as the two become one. This type of close, intimate relationship between sinful men and the Father is IMPOSSIBLE.
But, this close intimate relationship is possible with the Son, because He is THE mediator between God and man. ( 1 Timothy 2:5 ) or as Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 5:18 “ all this is from God, who through Christ, reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.
so the NT proves NO ONE can come to the Father except through the Son. No sinful human being can approach the Father except through Jesus Christ. This is how we KNOW the Father does not have a wife.
to further illustrate the point that dispensationalists get wrong that Israel is the Church, and that all believers, whether they are OT or NT, Jew or Gentile are the one Israel, let’s look at John 10:14-18,
“I am the good shepherd, I know my own and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father. and I lay down my life for the sheep. AND I HAVE OTHER SHEEP NOT OF THIS FOLD, I must bring them also and they will heed my voice. SO THERE WILL BE ONE FLOCK, ONE SHEPARD. for this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. no one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord, I have the power to lay it down and I have the power to take it again. this charge I have received from my Father.”
there you have an explanation of Israel, in the OT it was limited to the Jews and the Gentiles were considered dogs. but under the new covenant, the other sheep ( Gentiles ) are invited to join the one flock ( Israel ) God does not have TWO separate people, Israel and the Church, He has ONE PEOPLE, spiritual Israel.
so far this thread has resulted in three major false teachings being refuted:
1. Jesus is not a King today.
2. there is a future covenant to be made with national Israel, other than the new covenant in Jesus blood which is final and eternal.
3. and this whole the Father has a wife teaching.
all three take away from the glory and honor due the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 John 2:22-23
who is the liar but he who denies Jesus is the Christ? this is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. NO ONE WHO DENIES THE SON HAS THE FATHER. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.
so John 8 would appear to apply to anyone, just not those particular Jews being addressed.
so all members of the 12 tribes from Abraham all through history will be saved? interesting, even if they deny Jesus is the Christ?
Where did someone deny Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord or lords? Or are you adding something to your list of accusations from your continuing line of fallacious reasoning?
Just because you draw faulty conclusions does not make it fact.
No one denied Jesus is ruling King now. Can you for a minute imagine the conquering Messiah of Isaiah 61 establishing His Throne on earth?
my friend, I am all for dialogue, but that requires a two way street. you are very good at asking questions, not so good at answering them apparently.
I am still waiting for answers to:
1. reconciling Matthew 24 with the dispensational rapture/1,000 year reign theory.
2. using the literal historical method, tell me who is “Israel” in Romans 11:26.
if you can’t, please admit it and I will drop it. if you refuse and think I am here just to be cross examined without any opportunity to question you, homey don’t play that.
Can you for a minute imagine the conquering Messiah of Isaiah 61 establishing His Throne on earth
_________
No, this is not possible.
2 Peter 3:10
“but the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away and the elements will be dissolved with fire AND THE EARTH AND THE WORKS THAT ARE UPON IT WILL BE BURNED UP.”
kinda tough to have a throne on earth when there is no earth because it has been destroyed by fire.
I guess anything happening in the 19th century or 20th century is suspect for you. I too have reservations. One of which is the 19th century self declaration of Papal infallibility. That alone is not very apostolic. Maybe medieval. Same 19th century we had the immaculate conception and in early 20th we had the Assumption of Mary. So if your argument is Christian doctrine that comes later is suspect, you have a lot of explaining to do with your own Catholic doctrines.
Well there are four questions you have yet to respond to in part 8. I will chalk that up to you taking the 5th.
1. You deny there is a “caught up” rapture recorded in scriptures? If you read the articles Walvoord points out pre-mils have three views of rapture timing. After the man of sin revealed but before the tribulation; mid tribulation at the 7th and last Trumpet judgments; and the third being at the end of the tribulation just before the Second Coming on earth. Since you refuse to read the posted articles I summarize the above.
I also answered #1 twice. Read Matthew 25 which is the continuation of the Olivet discourse. Reading on to Acts 1:
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me[a] in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”(NASB)
2. It’s defined by Paul as Israel and not church. This is where your theological approach to the OT falls apart. The OT gives ample examples of a faithful remnant set aside.
The meticulous Apostle Paul continues and explains:
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”[i]
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”[j]
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
The melting of the elements happens before or after judgment passed as depicted in Matthew 25? How do you reconcile 2 Peter 3:10 with Matthew 25?
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.(NASB)
Then of course Jesus Christ expands on these matters in His unveiling to the Apostle John. Last I checked Revelation was confirmed at the council of Trent. Recommend reading Revelation 19-21 again.
Of course not...It's a metaphor...
I don't think so... it is very specific, to include 12k from each tribe... If it is the Church, then why the specificity wrt tribes?
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