The New Covenant Standard

The meat of the new covenant can only be understood in the light of our place in God's history of man.. It requires an understanding of the different expectations the Apostles had concerning the second coming. Here is my take on our new standard.

Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.

This had not happened yet as Paul was writing Hebrews.

2:8 putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.
1 Corinthians 5:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

1. From the Devil (Death and Hades also defeated through Christ's return bringing about the Old Covenant saints and New Testament Christians resurrection).

1Co 15:35 But some one will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
Note: The body is equated to a dead seed being sown. The resurrection required the death of the body. Therefore this "change" would not be "visible" until they who received this promise at the return, had died. However the spiritual reality of being clothed with life would still have happened!
1Co 15:39 For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
1Co 15:40 There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Note: This has been affirming the nature of the "change" or clothing they were to receive!
1Co 15:51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep,but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed 1Co 15:53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
1Co 15:55 "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" 1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

2. Deliverance from bondage. (Complete Old Covenant abolishment which enslaved them to works of the law).

Hebrews 3:10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their hearts; they have not known my ways.' 11 As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall never enter my rest.'
Hebrews 9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary is not yet opened as long as the outer tent is still standing 9 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper,
Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Due to the Jews wickedness, those who denied Christ, they would not enter His rest.
What rest?
The rest from "bondage" to the Old Covenant works of the law!
The seventh day was approaching!!

Chapter 4 of Hebrews is the key.
The Jews under the old covenant who rejected Christ would never enter it. The Jews who were saved would. They, however, being under the law still, by bondage to the old covenant, still had to be faithful not to fall. Their salvation was still resting on their behavioral faithfulness as faith. For they were in a unique time, one stuck between the old and new covenant. The old covenant had to be fully destroyed to enter the rest (freedom from that bondage).

We are not under this bondage in the same way we will never be under human authority figures in this new covenant because where they were still hoping to obtain, we HAVE obtained!!

Hebrews 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second. 8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord. 10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,

says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

The last is the answer to how He will handle your iniquities, my new covenant Christian brethren!

13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The Old is now obsolete.

Are His laws written on your heart?
Do you seek first God's kingdom over anything?
Do you love Him?

Hebrews 10:9 then he added, "Lo, I have come to do thy will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,

says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," 17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more."18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Brother, if you are saved, the evidence of that is your good works. It is natural grace offspring (fruit).
Brother, if you are saved, there is no more remission of sins, for they are already covered. As in chapter 8, He is MERCIFUL toward our iniquities (because grace itself tells us we cannot stop committing them). And in Chapter 10, He remembers them not.

We are all held to a perfection standard.
Christ holds that standard on our behalf.
You cannot and never will.
That is why the old is obsolete and the new is better.

No more types. No more shadows. Pure faith and freedom in Christ.

1. You are free from the standards.
2. You live them anyway for they are in your heart.

As in chapter 8, He is MERCIFUL toward our iniquities (because grace itself tells us we cannot stop committing them). And in Chapter 10, He remembers them not.

Sin is mankind's great problem. Every evil of life is ultimately attributable to sin. Sin is something we do, not something that happens to us.

The Angel told Josph, Mary would bear a son and they would call His name Jesus, "for he shall save his people from their sins."

When Jesus healed the deaf and blind, we can be sure that the deaf could actually hear after they were healed, and the blind could actually see, after they were healed. Now the thing we are all afflicted with, that Jesus was promised to save us from is "sins," that is, actually committing sin.

I do not believe there is a single Christian on any of these threads that really believes Christ is able to save them from "sins". What most Christians believe is they are saved from the consequences of sin, but not sin itself. It would be like saving a blind man from bumping into things without actually restoring his sight and telling him he was healed.

Strange that all those who talk about the sovereignty of God, and how nothing depends on what men do, believe the act of a single human being could enslave an entire race of men, but the death of the living God, cannot free a single one from that bondage.

That's what men believe. But the bible says, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 Jo 3:9)

Of course the Christian answer to all such verses is not humble obedience, but that absudity that makes all "Christians," schizophrenics (old meaning) or spiritual Dr. Jekylls and Mr. Hydes. Two natures, indeed!

James says to all this, "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (1:8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. (4:8)

Peter characterizes those, "who cannot cease from sin," which sounds to me like your, "we cannot stop committing them," as follows: 2 Pet. 2:12-14 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children.

Are these Christians?

If 1 Cor. 10:13 and 2 Cor 9:8 are true, and you are truly a Christian, what possible excuse is there for ever disobeying God?

Hank

1. From the Devil (Death and Hades also defeated through Christ's return bringing about the Old Covenant saints and New Testament Christians resurrection).

Set, Satan, and Shaitan are the same. "Satan" is a Hebrew word for the pagan Egyptian Set. Satan, Shaitan, Set or Seth ("Set-hn" as spoken in the ancient Hebrew) is a pagan entity, the "adversary" of Judaic theology. (A "pagan" is anyone not Judaic, Christian or Muslim.)

The Egyptian priest Manetho associated the Jews with the Hyksos and Moses with the Egyptian priest Osarsiph. It was at this time that the belief the Jews worshipped an ass – an animal holy to the Egyptian god Set was established. Both the Jews and the pagan Egyptians used the labels (i.e., Satan, Set, Seth, or "Set-hn" as spoken in the ancient Hebrew) to defame each other. How fitting that amidst this epic struggle and bloody conflict, the entity known as Satan was born into the World. Such conflict continued through the Maccabean period (with Antiochus Epiphanes), and continues into modern times on several fronts.

There is a recurring theme that alludes to the hostility between the pagan Egyptians and the Judaic. Often it is claimed by the Neo-Pagans that Satan is only found in Christianity. How can this be if Satan is undeniably a Hebrew word adapted from the name of the pagan Egyptian god Set? The Jewish synod of rabbinical authority will deny that Satan even exists. How do they reconcile that with the fact that it is a Hebrew word?

Food for thought...

From Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan:

Part III. Of a Christian Commonwealth. Chap. xxxviii. Of Eternal Life, Hell, Salvation, and Redemption.
[12] And first, for the tormentors, we have their nature and properties exactly and properly delivered by the names of the Enemy (or Satan), the Accuser (or Diabolus), the Destroyer (or Abaddon). Which significant names (Satan, Devil, Abaddon) set not forth to us any individual person, as proper names do, but only an office or quality, and are therefore appellatives, which ought not to have been left untranslated (as they are in the Latin and modern Bibles), because thereby they seem to be the proper names of demons, and men are the more easily seduced to believe the doctrine of devils, which at that time was the religion of the Gentiles, and contrary to that of Moses, and of Christ.
[13] And because by the Enemy, the Accuser, and Destroyer, is meant the enemy of them that shall be in the kingdom of God, therefore if the kingdom of God after the resurrection be upon the earth (as in the former Chapter I have shewn by Scripture it seems to be), the Enemy and his kingdom must be on earth also. For so also was it in the time before the Jews had deposed God. For God's kingdom was in Palestine, and the nations round about were the kingdoms of the Enemy; and consequently, by Satan is meant any earthly enemy of the Church.
Part IV. Of the Kingdom of Darkness. Chap. xlvii. Of the Benefit that proceedeth from such Darkness.
[21] For from the time that the Bishop of Rome had gotten to be acknowledged for bishop universal, by pretense of successsion to St. Peter, their whole hiearchy (or kingdom of darkness) may be compared to the kingdom of fairies (that is, to the old wives' fables in England, concerning ghosts and spirits and the feats they play in the night). And if a man consider the original of this great ecclesiastical dominion, he will easily percieve that the Papacy is no other than the ghost of the deceased Roman empire, sitting crowned upon the grave thereof. For so did the Papacy start up on a sudden out of the ruins of that heathen empire.
[23] The fairies, in what nation soever they converse, have but one universal king, which some poets of ours call King Oberon; but the Scripture calls Beelzebub, prince of demons. The ecclesiastics likewise, in whose dominions soever they be found, acknowledge but one universal king, the Pope.

Sin is mankind's great problem. Every evil of life is ultimately attributable to sin. Sin is something we do, not something that happens to us.

Full agreement.

"for he shall save his people from their sins."

From commiting more? From the ones commited? From all sin/sins comitted, still at times comitting?

but the death of the living God, cannot free a single one from that bondage.

It was not this skin He came to free us from or our resurrection would have taken place at Christ's resurrection. Why have a resurrection if this skin is completely redeemable?
It was it's LAW, that of sin and death, that we were to be freed from!

Notice Paul still refered to his flesh, after accepting Christ, as corruptable?
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

That is why Paul also referred to the resurrection as a spiritual one, not bodily!
1 Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain

We sow this corruptable for our incorrubtable to be risen.
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

This idea of actually having THESE very bodies redeemed and risen is not Biblical. It puts us on a level with Christ. His was actually reanimated into a spiritual body, but He knew no sin nor was he born from the seed of sin (man). His body is the type we recieve, but ours is not made manifest until we die and this perishable, corruptable is "sown."

That being said, do we have contradictions in the word?

That's what men believe. But the bible says, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 Jo 3:9)
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow F26 not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body F27 of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

What a perplexing passage. Showing the war between the flesh and the spirit. What a mystery that we can be saved by grace even in this mortal state.
But how can we be confident in our salvation?
Because the power of sin has been destroyed, that is the law!

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, F60 where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

The "law" passed away with the passing of the Old Covenant symbolized by the temple.
Hebrews 9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary is not yet opened as long as the outer tent is still standing 9:9 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper,

Christ came again to perfect the conscience of the worshiper.
How?
By destroying the law.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him
Save from what?
The LAW!!
The imperfect Old Covenant!
Hebrews 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second. 8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord. 10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

We have no more Old Covenant type law, but that which is written on our hearts. Our spirits have been regenerated to serve God, our flesh must, however, rot because of it's continued fight for corruption.

Note that through Christ's death, an event in Paul's past was the act that destroyed the power of death and the devil.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

You and I seem to keep disagreeing on this one. Satan was powerless over Christ. Christ took his power, but our redemptions were not consumated until the second coming!

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.
Hebrews 2:8 putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.

And it would not be until His second coming.
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15:51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 15:53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 15:55 "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

And they would have this victory when the resurrection of the saints and this "rapture" happens [happened].

The metaphors, "flesh," "old man," etc. (old nature and sinful nature are not Biblical) and flesh, meaning our physical bodies are different things. You have them confused terribly.

The corruption of the literal flesh is just mortality, which all living creatures are subject to. You don't suppose my kitty is sinful because her flesh will someday rot, do you. (Well, she's a vixen, but she's not sinful.)

Now, with regard to the body, you already pointed out that Jesus took on Himself exactly same kind of body we have. He would not have robed himself in something sinful.

Notice: Eph. 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

(Notice, both loving one's self, and loving one's body are used to illustrate proper love for one's wife, which is further used to illustrate Christ's love for the church.)

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

The blemished were rejected as sacrifices in the Old Testament. Here we are commended to present our bodies as sacrifices unto God, and they are called "Holy" and "acceptable" to God.

1 Cor 6:13-14 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

...and He is going to raise us up, just as He did our Lord.

1 Cor 6:19-29 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Thess. 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hank

Are you saying that only THEY recieved the clothing of life and we do not until we die?

I do not believe that is possible.

Joh 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

We both know that for them, even believing did not bring this about until His return and 2 Cor 5:4 happened.

But isn't this something we recieve instantly at the point of belief?

John 11:24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 11:26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Again, for them this was not reality until AD 70.

But isn't it reality for us at the point of belief?

That was the point of the New Covenant consumation!! Now we do not have to wait as Paul and them did for our "mortal to be further clothed with life." (2 Cor 5:4)
We HAVE attained the promise of this New Covenant.

This is why even though the "parousia" was for them, it brought in "everlasting righteousness" (Daniel 9:24) for all, forever (Eph 3:21).

This body of skin will never rise. But the spiritual man that is now alive clothing us (2 Cor 5:4), after Christ returned,(1 Cor 15:51-56) will go to be with the Lord when this seed is planted (1 Cor 15:35-36).
The resurrection was one of the spirit body. Not the flesh (skin).

The dead flesh (skin) will never rise but Christ's did. Why? Because it could not be held by the pains of death due to His sinlessness and His nature (not of Adam's seed).

What is a "spirit body?" Does it have fingers, eyes, tongues? Is it a body, but without skin? (Yuck!) These are serious question, by the way. The Bible specifically speaks of these things, not as metaphores, belonging to people after death.

But, it doesn't really matter. God anticipated this absurd viewpoint. The resurrection of the body is a real fleshly, skin-and-all body.

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.

By the way, "The dead flesh (skin) will never rise but Christ's did. Why? Because it could not be held by the pains of death due to His sinlessness and His nature (not of Adam's seed)." Now are you right or is the writer of Hebrews right?

Heb. 2:14-17 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Now Jesus either was born of the seed of Abraham (and therefore Adam) or He wasn't. He did have the same nature (and not that of angels) or he didn't. He either was made like us in all things or he wasn't.

I'll go with the writer of Hebrews.

Jesus had exactly the same kind of physical nature (flesh, blood, and skin) as we have, or the Bible is a big sham. If he had not had the same kind of physical body as us, he could not have died. That's what He inherited from Adam, just as we do, mortality. Sin is not ascribed to the physical body of flesh, blood, and skin anywhere in the Bible. Flesh is sometimes used metaphorically for a source of temptation that leads to sin, but the meat, and blood, and all organs are only things, and no "thing" is sin, only choices and actions are sin.

Hank

Are you saying that only THEY recieved the clothing of life and we do not until we die? I do not believe that is possible.

But isn't it reality for us at the point of belief?

This is an interesting question and one that I have wanted to address but had little opportunity until now. What is "believe" in this sense? Did not Judas "believe"? The two who lied about the price of their land, did they "believe"? Did not those who chose to remain in their high seats in the synogogues of Satan after meeting with Christ where they could not be seen of others "believe"? Of course, belief is nothing in and of itself. The devils believe and tremble! Look carefully at these verses.

Matthew 17:16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Now notice at the time Christ upraided them for their unbelief, were they not believers in a sense? There are other instances of them being upraided for unbelief. Also, please note that fasting once again is mentioned and I have been trying to make you see it's importance and here is an instance where prayer alone, without fasting would not have been successful. Also Paul taught them to defraud not one another except for a time that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer. This one's for you, Nate!

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

I have spoken in these tongues because I believed. The only thing stopping anyone from fulfillment in Christ is unbelief.

Remember, they were the bride of Christ and the firstfruits. No one up until they were clothed upon with immortality had attained to everlasting life under the new covenant Christ purchased with his blood. Once they were married to Christ, all was fulfilled and the New Jerusalem became a reality and the Kingdom of God is now with us. They set the standard if you will. When Jesus said "believe on him and you shall never die" this is what he meant, not all men but the firstfruits. Rest assuredly, we today will all die physically.

They were the firstfuits of the New Covenant, not the first fruits of the resurrected, they were the second and so are we. Christ was the first fruits of the resurrected. Very important clarification.

Thank you because I understand your point much better, but here is why I disagree.

Heb 8:1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and the true tent which is set up not by man but by the Lord. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary; for when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain."
6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

What are thos epromises if we are in the same boat as Paul and the "second fruits?"
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second. 8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;

Is the house of Israel the believers? Those who by faith, are heirs through the "SEED" (Christ)?

9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord.
10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel afterthose days,

Was Paul after those days? NO!!

He was the last of the Old days, all after the resurrection are "after those days" (US).

says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

And this is why it is a better covenant, a perfect one. This is why the Church is those who have the law in their hearts, not people who hang out in a building.
This is why we can have "assumed" authority figures teaching half truths but still be saved. This is why we can disagree here and later hug in heaven!!

13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

If we are in the same waiting stage that Paul was in, only for us, we have to die first, then we DO NOT HAVE A BETTER COVENANT!!
Because we have the same fears, will face the same judgment, will have our sins weighed against us (12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

Just because the event of the Old Covenant resurrection happened in the past, doesn't mean we don't recieve our reward, spiritualy, before we die. At the point of belief that I will now address.

Of course, belief is nothing in and of itself. The devils believe and tremble!

I looked at your verses. I agree simple belief is not enough because "simple" belief is NOT BELIEF.
Joh 12:46 - I have come as light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
Joh 14:12 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.

And we all know the warnings from James and 1 John.
Are the promises now based on faith or not?
Only God can determine an actual believer just like only God can award the reward of eternal life. Do YOU believe? If so, why worry?

Rest assuredly, we today will all die physically.

So did they and that is our #1 seperation. Only the dead can inherit the spiritual body.

1 Cor 15:35 But some one will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" 36 You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.

Paul called them foolish for believing in a "physical" resurrection. To have your body change from it's physical body to a spiritual one, the physical HAS TO DIE.

That is why:
1. If there WAS a rapture, the bodies of them died first.
2. The "rapture" was a spiritual event for the living, they were not caught up literaly, but were "further clothed with life"!

You cannot have it both ways. They either died physically on their way up (which is not scriptural) or they were "changed" while alive and remained alive until they died physicaly some time later.
Remember, I believe the rapture was a spiritual event. I am going to do a paper on what I believe this weekend (Lord willing).

Now Jesus either was born of the seed of Abraham (and therefore Adam) or He wasn't. He did have the same nature (and not that of angels) or he didn't. He either was made like us in all things or he wasn't.

I would go with the writer of Hebrews, and Paul also, for you forget, the seed of Abraham is not a racial issue, but a faith one.

Ro 4:11 - He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them,
Ga 3:7 - So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Ga 3:8 - And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."
16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many; but, referring to one, "And to your offspring," which is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance is by the law, it is no longer by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. [faith]

You are confusing why Christ was a son. Not through Joseph (man) but by the Spirit. He was the "Seed" by faith!

You also must throw out this:

35 But some one will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" 36 You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Jesus had exactly the same kind of physical nature (flesh, blood, and skin) as we have, or the Bible is a big sham.

NO SIR!!
Your interpretations being against scripture (that I just posted you) is the SHAM!! The word of God is not.

Why must You guys always have things as you expect them or they are a "sham!'

"If His return isn't what of how I expect, then He was a sham."
"If we do not rise the way I want to, it is a sham"

Calling Christ and Paul liars is the sham. Christ said He was coming THEN, Paul said we must die to rise in new SPIRITUAL body. Read 1 Cor 15:35-57!!!

Since you did not answer all of my qeustions, I will not answer all of yours.

In fact, only this, ...you forget, the seed of Abraham is not a racial issue, but a faith one, then you quote the passage in Romans that is talking about those who are "spiritual Israel," that is, the redeemed.

So you are applying verses entirely out of context to contradict the clear "in context" meaning of the verses you only partially quoted, namely:

Heb. 2:14-17 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

I do not know why you would try to make these verses say anything other than what they clearly say. "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same." Can there be any question of what the "same" refers to? Is it not flesh and blood, it referes to? But the writer goes on to say, "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren." How can this mean anything other than the fact his nature was perfectly human, inherited through His mother, the "seed of Abraham," that he might be like his brethern in "all things." Now, if he did not have the same kind of nature as is brethren, then He was not made like them in "all things."

As for the nonsense about Jesus being the seed of Abraham through "faith," does that mean Jesus was "born again" into family of Abraham like we are? And why would Jesus need to be born again?

I'm sorry if I have offended you. I believe you are sincere, and truly seeking the truth, but I fear that your heart has been moved from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Cor. 11:3) You do admit that you "system" is not exactly simple, and requires quite a bit of explanation, don't you? You have been doing a lot of explaining.

I think all systems which, "have all the answers," cannot be completely correct and contain some grave errors. If they did not, those who hold them would not condemn those who do not accept every nuance of their particular brand of Christianity, but declare with Paul, "...Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Rom. 14:5) I know this verse is talking about practice, but Peter reminds us Paul wrote some things that were hard to understand, 2 Pet. 3:16) so we must suppose every one didn't understand them, and that there were disagreements. Some things others demand we believe are things that have not been explicitly revealed at all, so no view may be rightly insisted on. (Deut. 29:29)

My purpose is not to convince you, and so long as our exchange was not offensive, it was interesting. I think I shall cease for now, to be sure I do not offend you.

God bless! Hank

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