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To: Hank Kerchief
Sin is mankind's great problem. Every evil of life is ultimately attributable to sin. Sin is something we do, not something that happens to us.

Full agreement.

"for he shall save his people from their sins."

From commiting more? From the ones commited? From all sin/sins comitted, still at times comitting?

but the death of the living God, cannot free a single one from that bondage.

It was not this skin He came to free us from or our resurrection would have taken place at Christ's resurrection. Why have a resurrection if this skin is completely redeemable?
It was it's LAW, that of sin and death, that we were to be freed from!

Notice Paul still refered to his flesh, after accepting Christ, as corruptable?
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

That is why Paul also referred to the resurrection as a spiritual one, not bodily!
1 Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain

We sow this corruptable for our incorrubtable to be risen.
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

This idea of actually having THESE very bodies redeemed and risen is not Biblical. It puts us on a level with Christ. His was actually reanimated into a spiritual body, but He knew no sin nor was he born from the seed of sin (man). His body is the type we recieve, but ours is not made manifest until we die and this perishable, corruptable is "sown."

That being said, do we have contradictions in the word?

That's what men believe. But the bible says, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 Jo 3:9)
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow F26 not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body F27 of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

What a perplexing passage. Showing the war between the flesh and the spirit. What a mystery that we can be saved by grace even in this mortal state.
But how can we be confident in our salvation?
Because the power of sin has been destroyed, that is the law!

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, F60 where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

The "law" passed away with the passing of the Old Covenant symbolized by the temple.
Hebrews 9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary is not yet opened as long as the outer tent is still standing 9:9 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper,

Christ came again to perfect the conscience of the worshiper.
How?
By destroying the law.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him
Save from what?
The LAW!!
The imperfect Old Covenant!
Hebrews 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second. 8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord. 10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


We have no more Old Covenant type law, but that which is written on our hearts. Our spirits have been regenerated to serve God, our flesh must, however, rot because of it's continued fight for corruption.
6 posted on 04/09/2002 8:22:53 AM PDT by nate4one
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To: nate4one
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body F27 of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

What a perplexing passage. Showing the war between the flesh and the spirit. What a mystery that we can be saved by grace even in this mortal state. But how can we be confident in our salvation? Because the power of sin has been destroyed, that is the law!

Are you an antinomian, then? What do you do with this verse: Mat. 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Notice, that all would not be fulfilled until "heaven and earth pass."

Hank

11 posted on 04/09/2002 6:54:58 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: nate4one
The metaphors, "flesh," "old man," etc. (old nature and sinful nature are not Biblical) and flesh, meaning our physical bodies are different things. You have them confused terribly.

The corruption of the literal flesh is just mortality, which all living creatures are subject to. You don't suppose my kitty is sinful because her flesh will someday rot, do you. (Well, she's a vixen, but she's not sinful.)

Now, with regard to the body, you already pointed out that Jesus took on Himself exactly same kind of body we have. He would not have robed himself in something sinful.

Notice: Eph. 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

(Notice, both loving one's self, and loving one's body are used to illustrate proper love for one's wife, which is further used to illustrate Christ's love for the church.)

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

The blemished were rejected as sacrifices in the Old Testament. Here we are commended to present our bodies as sacrifices unto God, and they are called "Holy" and "acceptable" to God.

1 Cor 6:13-14 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

...and He is going to raise us up, just as He did our Lord.

1 Cor 6:19-29 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Thess. 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hank

12 posted on 04/10/2002 1:16:55 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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