Posted on 08/19/2008 2:14:37 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
Should historical amnesia be an option for the average Christian?
Knowing church history, particularly as it relates to the early years of Christianity and the theological issues which faced leaders in that age is important for all believers, essayists in the summer edition of the Southern Baptist Journal of Theology argue. The latest SBJT examines the early church and encourages Christians to learn from important church fathers such as Athanasius, Augustine and Irenaeus.
Essayists include Southern Seminary professor Michael A.G. Haykin, author and pastor John Piper, Westminster Theological Seminary professor Carl Trueman, Western Seminary professor Todd L. Miles, and Scottish Baptist pastor Nick Needham.
Journal editor Stephen J. Wellum opens with a plea for Christians to take a closer look at their earliest leaders. He admonishes readers to consider the importance of the first centuries of the church and the leaders who worked to establish biblical orthodoxy.
“Today, one of our problems in the evangelical church, which no doubt reflects our larger culture, is that we do not know history, let alone church history and historical theology well,” Wellum writes.
“This is especially the case in regard to the era that we have now dubbed ‘the Patristic era.’ It is safe to say that for most evangelicals, including Baptists, we are more familiar with key people and theological ideas from the Reformation and post-Reformation era than we are of the people and ideas from the earliest years of the church.”
Wellum sets forth two reasons why a study of the church fathers is crucial for modern-day Christians: it helps to remind believers of the rampant pluralism that leaders of the early church faced, and it serves to remind believers that it was the church fathers who hammered out the orthodox expressions of the faith in crucial areas such as Christology and the Trinity.
Many of the ancient heresies which leaders of the nascent church contended with remain alive and well, Wellum points out, and are seen in sects such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.
“Knowing this era of church history will not only enable us to be alert to trends in our own day that basically re-invent ideas from the past, but it will also help us better to live and proclaim the gospel faithfully today, for God’s glory and our good.”
Haykin, who serves as professor of church history at Southern Seminary, reviews emerging church leader Brian McLaren’s new book “ Finding Our Way Again: The Return of the Ancient Practices,” a work that seeks to recommend spiritual disciplines as practiced in the early church to modern believers. One major problem with the book, Haykin argues, is that it articulates a spirituality that lacks any meaningful connection to the work of Christ.
“In the whole of the book,” Haykin writes, “there appears to be only one explicit reference to the cross. This occurs in the context of the trendy declaration that ‘Jesus didn’t come to start a new religion,’ for he ‘wouldn’t have been killed simply for starting a new religion,’ since the Roman Imperium was religiously tolerant. Yet, throughout its history, healthy Christian piety has directed people desirous of knowing how to draw near to God to the cross.”
In the end, Haykin concludes that McClaren’s book falls prey to the very thing is seeks to remedy and fails in its overall mission.
“McLaren keeps referring to ‘the ancient practices’ in his book, but, at the end of it, I was no wiser as to what exact period he is thinking of. I suspect that he would like the reader to think of the ancient church, which is usually dated from 100 A.D. to 500 A.D…But the truth of the matter is that much of what he said regarding these ancient practices is no older than the late Middle Ages.
“McLaren emphasizes that he wished to provide his readers with something more than a ‘mushy, amorphous spirituality,’ but that, in the opinion of this reader, is exactly what he has served up for his readers.”
Piper examines the life and theology of Athanasius, Needham provides an overview of the life and thought of St. Augustine of Hippo, Miles analyzes the thought of Irenaeus of Lyons, and Trueman traces the connections between Patristic beliefs and the theology of the Reformation.
The Journal also includes numerous book reviews and a panel discussion of the significance of the early church. Panelists include Southern Seminary professors Chad O. Brand and Gregg Allison, along with noted theological historian Stephen Nichols and Criswell College professor Everett Berry.
You wrote:
“We know that He was born before 1085 because Josephus and other historical figures have written of him prior to that (church fathers anyone?) DUH!”
Oh, no my friend. You see you have been fooled by the evil Catholic conspiracy according to that Russian scientist Anatoly T.Fomenko. He believs and presents four big fat volumes (two col. pages !) - 1 (624 pages), 2 (560 pages), 3 (824 pages), 4 (727 pages) - all pointing to the idea that our calendar is a fraud. He also claims that astronomical data proves him correct. A growing number of people believe him.
Fomenko’s theory is causing such a stir that it already has a volume examining both sides of the issue written by Florin Diacu, “a polyglot and erudite mathematician” in 320 pages. And I am surprised a Judaizer like you hasn’t picked up a copy of V. Melamed R. Grishin’s The Medieval Empire of the Israelites which runs to a mere 486 pages and goes along with Fomenko’s idea.
In other words, even intelligent people fool themselves with strange ideas thinking they’ve come across a truth few realized before. You fall in that category too.
Also, if you look through google books, you’ll see that scholars of every stripe come up with all sorts of years for Christ’s death from AD 28 - 37. I checked earlier tonight out of curiosity and found that nine year spread. See how easy that is?
See how your tradition is shown to be no better than those other Protestant or Judaizing traditions?
One thing I could never be fooled by is "The Evil Catholic Conspiracy".
Here's all you need to look at!
Rabbinical scholars have been recording history from the time of the return from Babylon and according to scripture....they are the only ones to be trusted: [Romans 3:1-2] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
You should really pay more attention to what The Lord tells you than what some jerk from Russia says. The Jews are in agreement....the first century was 2000 years ago! DUH!
You wrote:
“One thing I could never be fooled by is “The Evil Catholic Conspiracy”.”
But according to Fomenko, you have been fooled already.
“Here’s all you need to look at! Rabbinical scholars have been recording history from the time of the return from Babylon and according to scripture....they are the only ones to be trusted: [Romans 3:1-2] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.”
Sorry, but Romans 3:1-2 in no way suggests that ONLY Jews were to be trusted on chronology.
“You should really pay more attention to what The Lord tells you than what some jerk from Russia says.”
Nothing I ever said suggested that I do pay more attention to Fomenko then God. What I did suggest is that all sorts of crazy theories are out there - including yours.
“The Jews are in agreement....the first century was 2000 years ago! DUH!”
I agree. But the “expert” mathematician and astronomer doesn’t. He has fooled himself. So have you.
Oh.....? Then what does it say?
Take my word for it.....the first century was 2000 years ago. LOL
You wrote:
“Oh.....? Then what does it say?”
It doesn’t say that ONLY Jews are to be trusted on chronology. The Jews were given the OT. And they still by-and-large rejected Christ. So much for that advantage. That’s what the verse means. It gives no hint of chronological knowledge. I think you know that.
“Take my word for it.....the first century was 2000 years ago. LOL”
And who is disputing that here? Here’s another fact I’m not disputing: Christ died on Friday and rose on Sunday.
The Jews wrote the New Testament. Most everyone realizes this. Do you? Matthew, Peter, John, Paul, Mark, Luke???? Were not these folks Jewish?????? Even Our Lord was Jewish!
The New Testament Church was Jewish. All Festivals and Sabbaths continued to be celebrated and observed. Paul is told here [Acts 28:22] that the Jews in Rome even consider Christianity a sect of Judaism......30 years after the crucifixion! Where have you been?
The Apostles are observing Shavuot [Acts 2:1]. The Apostle Paul and Luke are marking time by Passover [Acts 20:6] and attempting to get to Jerusalem [Acts 20:16] to again observe Shavuot. They are marking time by Yom Kippur [Acts 27:9]. They continued to meet on the Sabbath...the seventh day, never honoring Sunday as a religious observance. They taught the observances of Judaism to new converts [Colossians 2:8-17].
The Jews were a significant part of early Christianity until folks like John Chrysostom entered the church and brought along their anti Semitism and bigotry. Without people like him......and other Catholic bigots, we may have been able to bring in your so called "Christ rejecting Jews" a long time ago. Instead.....you folks brought us the inquisition. Was this chapter in history ordained by God?
“The Ark of the Covenant was AN IMAGE because it had two angels on top of it.”
Because it had two angels on top of it? Where is the logic in that? These were God’s specifications, not Moses.
Moses was TOLD by GOD to make the Ark of the Covenant. Read Exodus 25:8-22. I haven’t been able to locate the verse where it says to make a statue of Mary yet. I’ll continue my search......but I think it’s an exercise in futility.
If I am wrong, then there is an old Jewish saying I would apply here, “never argue with a barking dog.” There are so many new revelations of Yahweh's truths today that ONLY if you are seeking HIM in relationship and NOT A RELIGION will you be able to receive these truths and turn radically aways from the lies scripture says we have inherited from our fathers.
(Jer 16:19 KJV) O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Now a teaching on who those Gentiles really are would really open up a can of worms :)
Marvelous!
The use of patristic writings as a record of how the early Church understood the revelation of Christ and how the early Church practiced this faith can only be a good thing!
My congratulations to these essayists!
You won't find one either.
But what you will find, if you do an in-depth study of Hebrews, is the basis for the subject of "typology."
Heb 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices which are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near.
Just for grins, perhaps you could, in your studies, take a look at what was contained within the Ark of the Covenant. Then, perhaps, you could take a look at what those things and surmise what they represent. It should be fairly obvious after doing so, what those things were a "type" of.
Once you do that, perhaps you may understand why Catholics say that Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant. You may not agree with the conclusion, but hopefully you'll understand the "why," whether you agree or not.
Diego, you have no proof for your claims. What you’re doing instead is claiming one thing is another.
An example:
“Paul is told here [Acts 28:22] that the Jews in Rome even consider Christianity a sect of Judaism......30 years after the crucifixion!”
So what? 1) The Romans are NOT our measuring stick here. 2) The fact that a pagan people mistook the Christians as a Jewish sect rather than the truth is happenstance. 3) Jews had become Christians so it is no wonder that outsiders might still consider the Christians to still be Jews: they were from the same families, had the same names, did indeed have many of the same practices. 4) What is lacking from your example is any evidence that the Christians taught it was necessary to celebrate Jewish festivals in order to be Christians.
You have been utterly unable to present any evidence for your side. Yes, early Christians often used old Jewish festivals. But that doesn’t help your argument in the least. There was no teaching that Christians had to do this whether of Jewish or Greek background. You’ve failed. It was always known you would.
You wrote:
“Because it had two angels on top of it?”
Yes.
“Where is the logic in that?”
I can’t believe you’re asking that question. Were the angels images? Yes. Theerfore, since they were images and were carried in procession that means images carried in procession are not wrong in themselves. Period.
“These were God’s specifications, not Moses.”
Thank you! That’s exactly the point. God ordered images to be made and they were carried in procession.
“Moses was TOLD by GOD to make the Ark of the Covenant. Read Exodus 25:8-22. I haven’t been able to locate the verse where it says to make a statue of Mary yet.”
Why would you have to? 1) Not every truth is in scripture. 2) Mary was still very much alive when much of the NT was being written.
“I’ll continue my search......but I think it’s an exercise in futility.”
The futility is attitudinal, not scriptural.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm
Well said!
You wrote:
“Neoplatonism is only “Christian” if you define “Christian” as pagan. Augustine was a hard-core Neoplatonist.”
Neoplatonism is NOT what St. Augustine was baptized into, nor what he had an abiding and deep trust in for his sanctification and grace. St. Augustine was a baptized and believing Christians who loved and glorified God. No matter how much of “hardcore Neoplatonist” he was, it never effected his faith nor his practice of Christianity.
“The proof is not only his writings, but the fact that so many other Neoplatonists(Catholic and Protestant) revere him.”
No. I greatly respect St. Augustine for the following reasons: his tremendous faith, his great love of God, his wonderful story of conversion, his great works of apologetics against Manicheans, Donatists, and Arians. His philosophy never enters into it. Only scholars concern themselves with that.
Again, he was a Christian. He learned from St. Ambrose of Milan, believed in Christ, was baptized into Christianity, wrote extensively defending Christianity, and died a Christian. Those are the facts, and they are undeniable.
Is your can opener working.....? Mine is! :)
I just noticed your post.....I'm still laughing!
Then.....if that's the case....why don't you show us where scripture tells us to ignore the Festivals of Our Lord....and His Sabbaths?
You know......a wise man once told me that the scriptures are like an instruction manual....a hand book guide if you please. He said, "The original product is still the best available.....so no updates have been published".
I would think that God's Holy Festivals and Sabbaths, that had been ordained forever [Leviticus 23], would at least rate a page or two of updates.....if they had been, updated?????????
You wrote:
“Then.....if that’s the case....why don’t you show us where scripture tells us to ignore the Festivals of Our Lord....and His Sabbaths?”
Why would I have to? Until Protestant sects of sabbatarians and latter day Judaizers came along did anyone believe there was anything wrong with not following the Jewish calendar? Your concerns are nothing but a recent man made tradition of Judaizing. The burden is yours. You must show that something was not done that was wrong, but that it was known to be wrong. If you can’t demonstrate both then there’s no reason to believe either.
“You know......a wise man once told me that the scriptures are like an instruction manual....a hand book guide if you please. He said, “The original product is still the best available.....so no updates have been published”.”
And yet you have failed to demonstrate how the “original” (which we don’t actually have) rules out anything but a Jewish calendar. I am neither Jew nor Greek. It is not incumbent upon me to follow the Jewish calendar.
“I would think that God’s Holy Festivals and Sabbaths, that had been ordained forever [Leviticus 23], would at least rate a page or two of updates.....if they had been, updated?????????”
Judaism itself was updated. That update is called Christianity and it no where demands that we follow the Jewish calendar.
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