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New SBJT encourages study of the early church
Towers Online: The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary ^ | August 19, 2008 | Jeff Robinson

Posted on 08/19/2008 2:14:37 PM PDT by Alex Murphy

Should historical amnesia be an option for the average Christian?

Knowing church history, particularly as it relates to the early years of Christianity and the theological issues which faced leaders in that age is important for all believers, essayists in the summer edition of the Southern Baptist Journal of Theology argue. The latest SBJT examines the early church and encourages Christians to learn from important church fathers such as Athanasius, Augustine and Irenaeus.

Essayists include Southern Seminary professor Michael A.G. Haykin, author and pastor John Piper, Westminster Theological Seminary professor Carl Trueman, Western Seminary professor Todd L. Miles, and Scottish Baptist pastor Nick Needham.

Journal editor Stephen J. Wellum opens with a plea for Christians to take a closer look at their earliest leaders. He admonishes readers to consider the importance of the first centuries of the church and the leaders who worked to establish biblical orthodoxy.

“Today, one of our problems in the evangelical church, which no doubt reflects our larger culture, is that we do not know history, let alone church history and historical theology well,” Wellum writes.

“This is especially the case in regard to the era that we have now dubbed ‘the Patristic era.’ It is safe to say that for most evangelicals, including Baptists, we are more familiar with key people and theological ideas from the Reformation and post-Reformation era than we are of the people and ideas from the earliest years of the church.”

Wellum sets forth two reasons why a study of the church fathers is crucial for modern-day Christians: it helps to remind believers of the rampant pluralism that leaders of the early church faced, and it serves to remind believers that it was the church fathers who hammered out the orthodox expressions of the faith in crucial areas such as Christology and the Trinity.

Many of the ancient heresies which leaders of the nascent church contended with remain alive and well, Wellum points out, and are seen in sects such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.

“Knowing this era of church history will not only enable us to be alert to trends in our own day that basically re-invent ideas from the past, but it will also help us better to live and proclaim the gospel faithfully today, for God’s glory and our good.”

Haykin, who serves as professor of church history at Southern Seminary, reviews emerging church leader Brian McLaren’s new book “ Finding Our Way Again: The Return of the Ancient Practices,” a work that seeks to recommend spiritual disciplines as practiced in the early church to modern believers. One major problem with the book, Haykin argues, is that it articulates a spirituality that lacks any meaningful connection to the work of Christ.

“In the whole of the book,” Haykin writes, “there appears to be only one explicit reference to the cross. This occurs in the context of the trendy declaration that ‘Jesus didn’t come to start a new religion,’ for he ‘wouldn’t have been killed simply for starting a new religion,’ since the Roman Imperium was religiously tolerant. Yet, throughout its history, healthy Christian piety has directed people desirous of knowing how to draw near to God to the cross.”

In the end, Haykin concludes that McClaren’s book falls prey to the very thing is seeks to remedy and fails in its overall mission.

“McLaren keeps referring to ‘the ancient practices’ in his book, but, at the end of it, I was no wiser as to what exact period he is thinking of. I suspect that he would like the reader to think of the ancient church, which is usually dated from 100 A.D. to 500 A.D…But the truth of the matter is that much of what he said regarding these ancient practices is no older than the late Middle Ages.

“McLaren emphasizes that he wished to provide his readers with something more than a ‘mushy, amorphous spirituality,’ but that, in the opinion of this reader, is exactly what he has served up for his readers.”

Piper examines the life and theology of Athanasius, Needham provides an overview of the life and thought of St. Augustine of Hippo, Miles analyzes the thought of Irenaeus of Lyons, and Trueman traces the connections between Patristic beliefs and the theology of the Reformation.

The Journal also includes numerous book reviews and a panel discussion of the significance of the early church. Panelists include Southern Seminary professors Chad O. Brand and Gregg Allison, along with noted theological historian Stephen Nichols and Criswell College professor Everett Berry.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: christianity; churchhistory; history; religion
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1 posted on 08/19/2008 2:14:38 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

This is indeed needed. Some baptist circles believe Jesus was baptist because he was baptized by John the baptist. And I am not kidding!


2 posted on 08/19/2008 2:25:56 PM PDT by DonaldC
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To: DonaldC; Alex Murphy

“Some baptist circles believe Jesus was baptist because he was baptized by John the baptist. And I am not kidding!”

Oh yeah. Most if not all Roman catholics beleive Peter was the first pope. Not kidding! : )


3 posted on 08/19/2008 2:44:14 PM PDT by Augustinian monk (You going to pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?- Jose Wales)
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To: Alex Murphy

“Today, one of our problems in the evangelical church, which no doubt reflects our larger culture, is that we do not know history, let alone church history and historical theology well,” Wellum writes.

It’s so good to see a Protestant admit this.


4 posted on 08/19/2008 2:59:16 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: DonaldC

Some Baptists think they are named after John the Baptist and that he was the first Baptist (as in confessional Baptist). Bizarre.


5 posted on 08/19/2008 3:00:46 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Alex Murphy
"Wellum sets forth two reasons why a study of the church fathers is crucial for modern-day Christians: it helps to remind believers of the rampant pluralism that leaders of the early church faced, and it serves to remind believers that it was the church fathers who hammered out the orthodox expressions of the faith in crucial areas such as Christology and the Trinity."

Wouldn't most Baptists have a problem with that statement because it sort of refutes 'the Bible only' belief?

This was a pretty interesting article, btw, thanks for posting it.

6 posted on 08/19/2008 3:14:41 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: vladimir998

With Him (Wellum) trowing in the person of Augustine I have questions if he is protestant. Augustine was a believer in Mithra.


7 posted on 08/19/2008 3:16:54 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: Alex Murphy
I hope they study the Nicene Council in 325 AD and see how the Hebrew faith that was left to the Believers was remixed with paganism to satisfy Constantine and his countrymen. That is how we have all been worshiping Mithra, with all of his accutrements, for the past 2000 yrs.
,
8 posted on 08/19/2008 3:28:31 PM PDT by ladyL (.)
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To: guitarplayer1953

You wrote:

“With Him (Wellum) trowing in the person of Augustine I have questions if he is protestant. Augustine was a believer in Mithra.”

Uh, no he wasn’t. He was a Christian. Late in his 20s he abandoned paganism (Manicheanism) and came to believe in Christ. He was baptized. He was never a believe in Mithradaism which was mostly a religion for soldiers.

As someone noted and documented:

Saint Augustine Tractatus in Joh. Evang. VII, 6. (Pileatus = a god wearing a phrygian cap; either Attis or Mithras).

Some counterfeit therefore the spirit which I speak has set up, as though he would fain redeem by blood his own image, since he knew that by precious blood the human race was redeemed. For evil spirits invent for themselves certain counterfeit representations of high degree, that by this means they may deceive the followers of Christ. To such an extent, my brethren, that these very foes of ours, who delude by their posturing and incantations and devices, mingle with their incantations the name of Christ. And because with poison alone they are unable to lead the Christians astray, they add a little honey, to conceal the bitter taste by the sweet, that the fatal draught may be taken; to such an extent that as I understand at one time the priest of that mitred god [Mithras] was accustomed to say, “the mitred god himself also was a Christian.” (DyingGod website)

And this is a great thing to see in the whole world, the lion vanquished by the blood of the Lamb: members of Christ delivered from the teeth of the lions, and joined to the body of Christ. Therefore some spirit or other contrived the counterfeit that His image should be bought for blood, because he knew that the human race was at some time to be redeemed by the precious blood. For evil spirits counterfeit certain shadows of honor to themselves, that they may deceive those who follow Christ. So much so, my brethren, that those who seduce by means of amulets, by incantations, by the devices of the enemy, mingle the name of Christ with their incantations: because they are not now able to seduce Christians, so as to give them poison they add some honey, that by means of the sweet the bitter may be concealed, and be drunk to ruin. So much so, that I know that the priest of that Pilleatus was sometimes in the habit of saying, Pilleatus himself also is a Christian. Why so, brethren, unless that they were not able otherwise to seduce Christians? (ANF)
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.toc.html

St. Augustine was not only NOT a Mithra worshipper, but he warned Christians against Mithradaism.

Not ironically, the person who has helped fool so many poorly educated fundamentalists, anti-Catholics, conspiracy theorists and so on into believing Augustine may have been linked to Mithradaism is a feminist who looks at all of Christianity as largely a pagan thing: http://www.skepticfiles.org/mys3/christ.htm


9 posted on 08/19/2008 4:00:12 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: ladyL

Pagan beliefs were NOT mixed in any way with Christianity at the Council of Nicaea or any other council. That idea is a modernist, anti-Catholic idea invented to excuse the complete lack of historical or biblical origins for Protestantism.


10 posted on 08/19/2008 4:02:38 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Alex Murphy; DonaldC; american colleen; Augustinian monk; All
“Knowing this era of church history will not only enable us to be alert to trends in our own day that basically re-invent ideas from the past, but it will also help us better to live and proclaim the gospel faithfully today, for God’s glory and our good.”

You will definitely enjoy this book! I could not put it down.

Available through Amazon.com

What was the early Church like? Contrary to popular belief, Rod Bennett shows there is a reliable way to know. Four ancient Christian writers—four witnesses to early Christianity —left us an extensive body of documentation on this vital subject, and this book brings their fascinating testimony to life for modern believers. With all the power and drama of a gripping novel, this book is a journey of discovery of ancient and beautiful truths through the lives of four great saints of the early Church—Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus of Lyons.

Good to see you in the forum, Colleen! Hope and pray all is well with you.

11 posted on 08/19/2008 4:28:48 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998

Augustine did more to corrupt true Christianity than any other person.Pro-Catholics have been spoon feed to many traditions and dink to much koolaid. You place Augustine on way to high a pedestal.


12 posted on 08/19/2008 5:34:37 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: vladimir998

Oh my, where ever your head is, I think I’d better leave it alone cause you are seriously misinformed. Peace Bro.


13 posted on 08/19/2008 5:38:22 PM PDT by ladyL (.)
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To: vladimir998
It’s so good to see a Protestant admit this.

A benefit of the growing Calvinistic influence in the SBC. You are going to end up on the same side as the Calvinists on this thread.

14 posted on 08/19/2008 5:48:12 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock

Ping.


15 posted on 08/19/2008 5:51:08 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: guitarplayer1953

You wrote:

“Augustine did more to corrupt true Christianity than any other person.”

No, St. Augustine did more to teach more people true Christianity than any person of his age and perhaps more than any person after him.

“Pro-Catholics have been spoon feed to many traditions and dink to much koolaid.”

No, Catholics simply know the truth.

“You place Augustine on way to high a pedestal.”

Nope. God put him where he is.


16 posted on 08/19/2008 6:01:02 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: ladyL

You wrote:

“Oh my, where ever your head is, I think I’d better leave it alone cause you are seriously misinformed. Peace Bro.”

No, I’m actually extremely well informed. But you might as well go since you have no evidence from a reputable source for what you say.


17 posted on 08/19/2008 6:04:25 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Augustine did more to corrupt true Christianity than any other person.Pro-Catholics have been spoon feed to many traditions and dink to much koolaid. You place Augustine on way to high a pedestal.

AMEN!

18 posted on 08/19/2008 6:12:59 PM PDT by Truth Defender (History teaches, if we but listen to it; but no one really listens!)
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To: vladimir998
Lets see here He changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday which God never did. He brought in more pagan practices of that time time period if it was worshiped and practiced he just stamped Christ on it and said we do that too. God does not place anyone on a pedestal it was and is forbidden because all have sinned and that includes Mary too and need salvation.
19 posted on 08/19/2008 6:33:13 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: vladimir998; ladyL; Ezekiel; Jeremiah Jr; onedoug; XeniaSt
Pagan beliefs were NOT mixed in any way with Christianity at the Council of Nicaea or any other council.

If that's the case.....why does your Church not celebrate Passover and the other Biblically instituted Feast Days that were observed by Our Lord and all the Apostles? Were they too Jewish?

You can search the New Testament and will not find one solitary commandment to do away with The Lord's Festivals. This was done entirely on the authority of the Early Church with no scriptural commands whatsoever. Those who continued to observe these Holy Days were persecuted and threatened with death if they continued. Many early congregations still celebrated Passover well into the third, fourth and fifth centuries but your Councils and Synods called these folks heretics and supplanted these observances with pagan customs and observances instead.

That idea is a modernist, anti-Catholic idea invented to excuse the complete lack of historical or biblical origins for Protestantism.

No.....it's a Biblical position not supported by your Church! As far as I know....very few Protestants observe Passover......or the other festivals.

20 posted on 08/19/2008 6:54:06 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: guitarplayer1953

You wrote:

“Lets see here He changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday which God never did.”

Incorrect. St. Augustine did not change anything. The Church already worshipped on Sundays.

“He brought in more pagan practices of that time time period if it was worshiped and practiced he just stamped Christ on it and said we do that too.”

A braod, sweeping statement with absolutely not a shred of evidence. Gee, I wonder why? Because there are no examples, because no such thing ever happened.

“God does not place anyone on a pedestal it was and is forbidden because all have sinned and that includes Mary too and need salvation.”

Incorrect. God makes saints. Those saints rule in heaven with Him and will judge mankind. If that isn’t a pedestal, what is? Oh, and thanks for throwing in the completely false premise at the end there. Needing salvation doesn’t stop saints from being put on a pedestal by God. He makes them. He saves them.


21 posted on 08/19/2008 6:54:32 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998; ladyL
Pagan beliefs were NOT mixed in any way with Christianity at the Council of Nicaea or any other council. That idea is a modernist, anti-Catholic idea invented to excuse the complete lack of historical or biblical origins for Protestantism.

The Roman Office of the Pontifex Maximus began in 712 BC

Later all Roman Emperors held the title Pontifex Maximus.

Emperor Constantine held the title from 306 to 337 AD

Constantine convened the Nicene Council in 325 AD and issued this edict:

ON THE KEEPING OF EASTER.

From the Letter of the Emperor to all those not present at the Council.
(Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18-20.)

When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was
universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the
feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable,
than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of
immortality, celebrated by all with one accord, and in the same
manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the
holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the
Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and
whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom,(1) we may
transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter,
which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the
present day[according to the day of the week].
We ought not,
therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour
has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and
more convenient course(the order of the days of the week); and
consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest
brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the
Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without
their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the
right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led
by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them? They
do not possess the truth in this Easter question; for, in their blindness
and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two
passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly
in error. How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are most
certainly blinded by error? for to celebrate the passover twice in one
year is totally inadmissible. But even if this were not so, it would still
be your duty not to tarnish your soul by communications with such
wicked people[the Jews]. Besides, consider well, that in such an
important matter, and on a subject of such great solemnity, there ought
not to be any division. Our Saviour has left us only one festal day of
our redemption, that is to say, of his holy passion, and he desired[to
establish] only one Catholic Church. Think, then, how unseemly it is,
that on the same day some should be fasting whilst others are seated
at a banquet; and that after Easter, some should be rejoicing at feasts,
whilst others are still observing a strict fast. For this reason, a Divine
Providence wills that this custom should be rectified and regulated in a
uniform way; and everyone, I hope, will agree upon this point. As, on
the one hand, it is our duty not to have anything in common with the
murderers of our Lord; and as, on the other, the custom now followed
by the Churches of the West, of the South, and of
the North, and by some of those of the East, is the most acceptable, it
has appeared good to all; and I have been guarantee for your consent,
that you would accept it with joy, as it is followed at Rome, in Africa,
in all Italy, Egypt, Spain, Gaul, Britain, Libya, in all Achaia, and in the
dioceses of Asia, of Pontus, and Cilicia. You should consider not only
that the number of churches in these provinces make a majority, but
also that it is right to demand what our reason approves, and that we
should have nothing in common with the Jews. To sum up in few
words: By the unanimous judgment of all, it has been decided that the
most holy festival of Easter should be everywhere celebrated on one
and the same day, and it is not seemly that in so holy a thing there
should be any division. As this is the state of the case, accept joyfully
the divine favour, and this truly divine command;
for all which takes
place in assemblies of the bishops ought to be regarded as proceeding
from the will of God. Make known to your brethren what has been
decreed, keep this most holy day according to the prescribed mode; we
can thus celebrate this holy Easter day at the same time, if it is granted
me, as I desire, to unite myself with you; we can rejoice together,
seeing that the divine power has made use of our instrumentality for
destroying the evil designs of the devil
, and thus causing faith, peace,
and unity to flourish amongst us. May God graciously protect you, my
beloved brethren.

from DOCUMENTS FROM THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA [THE FIRST ECUMENICAL COUNCIL] A.D. 325

This is the Decree from the first Pontiff of the Roman church to all the world.

Emperor Constantine, Emperor of the Roman Empire

He had issued an Edict making Sunday the day of rest

In 321 CE, while a Pagan sun-worshiper, the Emperor Constantine
declared that Sunday was to be a day of rest throughout the Roman Empire:

"On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest,
and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture
may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day
is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment
for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost."
Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were
to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Sunday became the new Sabbath.

They ruled: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day."

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
22 posted on 08/19/2008 7:03:40 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: vladimir998
The existence of the Catholic Bishop of Rome (same positional authority as a Pope) Sylvester I (314-335 A.D.) who approved (for Christendom) Constantine the Great's 321 AD Edict - changing the Sabbath to Sunday.

That's one your wrong on. Read the two Babylon's and your eyes will be opened as to the parallels of the Babylonian religion and the RCC. I'm glad to hear that God makes saint and not the Catholic church because God does not place them on pedestal but the RCC does.

PS all believers are saints alive and dead.

23 posted on 08/19/2008 7:09:24 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: Diego1618

You wrote:

“If that’s the case.....why does your Church not celebrate Passover and the other Biblically instituted Feast Days that were observed by Our Lord and all the Apostles? Were they too Jewish?”

Christians were released from exclusively Jewish requirements: kosher laws for instance.

Also, in case you didn’t know - and apparently you don’t - Christians had ceased to celebrate most or all Jewish feast days before both Constantine and Augustine.

“You can search the New Testament and will not find one solitary commandment to do away with The Lord’s Festivals.”

What you find is a rather clear sweeping away of Jewish requirements for Christians.

“This was done entirely on the authority of the Early Church with no scriptural commands whatsoever.”

Again, in Acts, Jesus did away with Jewish requirements.

“Those who continued to observe these Holy Days were persecuted and threatened with death if they continued.”

Judaizers were doctrinally wrong and often mistakenly placed works righteousness (based on Mosaic law and Jewish practice) in the way of salvation by free grace.

“Many early congregations still celebrated Passover well into the third, fourth and fifth centuries but your Councils and Synods called these folks heretics and supplanted these observances with pagan customs and observances instead.”

No, those who disobediently maintained Judaizing practices were called what they were and no pagan beliefs were placed on them at all.

“No.....it’s a Biblical position not supported by your Church!”

No. If it was Biblical someone orthodox over the last 2000 years would have said so. Instead, we only hear this from the fringes of modernist restorationist movements, Judaizing sects and assorted wackos.

“As far as I know....very few Protestants observe Passover......or the other festivals.”

Good for them. There’s no reason to observe things now made manifestly better in Christ’s Incarnation, Atonement and Resurrection.


24 posted on 08/19/2008 7:37:17 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: XeniaSt

The Resurrection of Christ is not pagan.


25 posted on 08/19/2008 7:38:28 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: guitarplayer1953

You wrote:

“The existence of the Catholic Bishop of Rome (same positional authority as a Pope) Sylvester I (314-335 A.D.) who approved (for Christendom) Constantine the Great’s 321 AD Edict - changing the Sabbath to Sunday.”

What? IS that a sentence or a fragment? It seems to be half of a very long sentence with no real point yet. I have no idea what you’re saying, but I do know you stole it from here without attribution: http://bibleprobe.com/sundayworship.htm

I would really appreciate it if you would be honest in the future and admit when you take things form places. Can you do that? It’s not hard.

“That’s one your wrong on. Read the two Babylon’s and your eyes will be opened as to the parallels of the Babylonian religion and the RCC.”

I’ve read portions of it and could barely keep from laughing aloud. The book is nonsense. Ralph Woodrow exposed Hislop’s slop for the schlock it is years ago already. Hislop made up things out of whole cloth. He is not taken seriously as a scholar by ANYONE who has a academic or scholarly reputation.

“I’m glad to hear that God makes saint and not the Catholic church because God does not place them on pedestal but the RCC does.”

No, God makes saints and that means HE puts them on a pedestal.

“PS all believers are saints alive and dead.”

But we were talking about SAINT Augustine and he IS NOT alive on this earth, but he is alive in heaven.


26 posted on 08/19/2008 7:46:52 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: NYer; vladimir998

EARLY CHURCH FATHERS (38 Volumes) here:
http://thirdmill.org/books/series.asp/category/bookssub8#ecf


27 posted on 08/19/2008 7:50:16 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: vladimir998
Is English your first language?
28 posted on 08/19/2008 8:02:38 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: vladimir998
Is English your first language?
29 posted on 08/19/2008 8:02:41 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: vladimir998

Historically, the change from Sabbath to Sunday has been attributed to the ecclesiastical authority of the Roman Catholic church rather than to Biblical or apostolic precepts. Thomas Aquinas, for example, explicitly states that:

“the observance of the Lord’s Day took the place of the observance of the Sabbath not by virtue of the [Biblical] precept but by the institution of the church.” (1)

http://www.biblestudy.org/godsrest/how-did-sunday-keeping-begin.html


30 posted on 08/19/2008 8:05:27 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: vladimir998
The Resurrection of Christ is not pagan.

Of cause not.

Yah'shua did not rise from the dead on Easter.

He rose on the YHvH commanded Feast Day of First Fruits.

It is the day following the Shabbat following Passover.

See Leviticus 23 for an explanation.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
31 posted on 08/19/2008 8:07:45 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: Alex Murphy

bump


32 posted on 08/19/2008 8:13:05 PM PDT by VOA
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To: guitarplayer1953

Yes, and that’s why I know what you posted didn’t make sense.

Let’s examine it shall we? Let’s take out the parenthetical phrases:

“The existence of the Catholic Bishop of Rome Sylvester I who approved Constantine the Great’s 321 AD Edict - changing the Sabbath to Sunday.”

It still doesn’t make sense. Is the sentence about the existence of Sylvester? Is it about Sylvester’s action? And if it is about Sylvester’s action should there be a point to the action at the end of the sentence? Here, look at this version:

“It was Pope Sylvester I (314-335 A.D.) who approved Emperor Constantine the Great’s AD 321 edict - changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.”

My sentence makes sense. Yours? Not so much.


33 posted on 08/19/2008 8:16:14 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: guitarplayer1953

You wrote:

“Historically, the change from Sabbath to Sunday has been attributed to the ecclesiastical authority of the Roman Catholic church rather than to Biblical or apostolic precepts.”

So what? Neither the first day of the week nor the Church is pagan in origin so you still have utterly failed to provide a single scrap of evidence for your claim.


34 posted on 08/19/2008 8:17:31 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: XeniaSt

You wrote:

“Yah’shua did not rise from the dead on Easter.”

Yeah, actually He did.

Sorry, but these Judaizing conspiracy theories about hiding Jesus’ real resurrection day are silly and pointless. Christ rose on Easter. Period.


35 posted on 08/19/2008 8:19:35 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
Sorry, but these Judaizing conspiracy theories about hiding Jesus’ real resurrection day are silly and pointless. Christ rose on Easter. Period.

This may come a a surprise to you:

Jesus is a Jew

When He returns He will rule on the throne of King David in Jerusalem.

Miriam was a Jew

The apostles were all Jews

All of the books of the Bible were written by Jews.

If you are saved it is by a Jewish Messiah.

Easter is a Pagan feast introduced into the RCC by a Pagan: Constantine.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
36 posted on 08/19/2008 8:35:52 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: vladimir998

Geez, a whole new group. It was an interesting article.


37 posted on 08/19/2008 8:36:42 PM PDT by Jaded (does it really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: vladimir998
Like I asked is English your first language?

ecclesiastical authority of the Roman Catholic church, not the bible or the apostles
No Christianity is not pagan but many of the practices of the RCC were take from the pagan religions of their day.

38 posted on 08/19/2008 8:49:14 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: XeniaSt

You wrote:

“This may come a a surprise to you:
Jesus is a Jew”

No, that is not a surprise to me. Is it a surprise to you that you’re a Judaizer?

“When He returns He will rule on the throne of King David in Jerusalem.”

So say those who believe in an earthly reign.

“Miriam was a Jew”

Mary, yes, she was a Jew too. Is that news to you? You know what she wasn’t? A Judaizer.

“The apostles were all Jews”

Yep. Is that news to you too? And you know what they weren’t? They weren’t Judaizers.

“All of the books of the Bible were written by Jews.”

Luke was not Jewish as far as we know. He clearly was Greek in culture and that is not explained away if he was a hellenized Jew. He wrote two books of the Bible. In case you didn’t know.

“If you are saved it is by a Jewish Messiah.”

Yes, but it was truly His sacrifice as God-man that saved. And it saves me whether I’m Jewish or not in origin.

“Easter is a Pagan feast introduced into the RCC by a Pagan: Constantine.”

Nope. Easter already existed - since AD 33. Anyone who knows anything about history knows this is true by virtue of the fact that there were arguments over the proper dating of Easter before Constantine was even born.


39 posted on 08/19/2008 8:50:43 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: guitarplayer1953
The existence of the Catholic Bishop of Rome (same positional authority as a Pope) Sylvester I (314-335 A.D.) who approved (for Christendom) Constantine the Great's 321 AD Edict - changing the Sabbath to Sunday.

You've obviously confused Augustine, the Catholic bishop of the North African town of Hippo, the "Doctor of Grace", with Constantine, the Roman Emperor, who was certainly friendly to Christianity but may or may not have died an Arian heretic rather than a Catholic.

They aren't the same person, not even close.

Christians were worshipping on Sunday long before Constantine. Even some of the SDAs admit that now. Ignatius of Antioch, writing in AD 110, congratulates some of those to whom he was writing on "no longer Sabbathing". Justin Martyr (AD 150) and others write of Christians meeting for worship "on the first day of the week, the day named for the sun".

Read the two Babylon's and your eyes will be opened as to the parallels of the Babylonian religion and the RCC.

An awesomely stupid and wrong book, based on poorly-understood 1840's archaeology, glued together with one logical fallacy after another.

Ralph Woodrow is a Baptist who wrote a book endorsing Hislop's idiocy. Then a fellow Baptist challenged him to look at it more closely, and he began to see the errors all over Hislop's book. He wrote another book, The Babylon Connection, exposing and explaining those errors. I suggest you read it.

40 posted on 08/19/2008 8:52:04 PM PDT by Campion
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To: guitarplayer1953

You wrote:

“Like I asked is English your first language?”

And I answered your question. Apparently you’re having problems reading simply English.

“No Christianity is not pagan but many of the practices of the RCC were take from the pagan religions of their day.”

Such as? Wearing pants? Only pagans wore pants you know? That’s stupid, right? And so is most of the other things anti-Catholic trot out at this point. Do you wear a wedding ring? Did you exchange wedding vows with your spouse? Pagan. Did you know that?


41 posted on 08/19/2008 8:53:42 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: XeniaSt
Easter is a Pagan feast introduced into the RCC by a Pagan: Constantine.

Why did he call it by a Greek name derived directly from a Hebrew name, if it was a "pagan feast"?

As I've pointed out to you over and over again, his decree never uses the word "Easter" or any word related to it. The word his decree used is Pascha.

What "pagan feast" is Pascha?

42 posted on 08/19/2008 8:54:57 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Diego1618; Jeremiah Jr; onedoug; Eagle Eye
This was done entirely on the authority of the Early Church with no scriptural commands whatsoever.

Sure explains how three is supposed to equal one.

Monopolytheism, that about sums it up, board game pun and all.

The author asks,

Should historical amnesia be an option for the average Christian?

Mar 12:28-29 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Hos 2:13 And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the LORD.

43 posted on 08/19/2008 8:55:39 PM PDT by Ezekiel (Strange things are afoot at the Circle K.)
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To: Campion
What "pagan feast" is Pascha?

If it is not on the 14th of Nissan it is PAGAN
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
44 posted on 08/19/2008 9:06:53 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: guitarplayer1953

***Augustine was a believer in Mithra.***

Strange. I thought he was first a Manichee, then a Christian.


45 posted on 08/19/2008 9:12:26 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: XeniaSt
If it is not on the 14th of Nissan it is PAGAN

Why? Don't those other days belong to the God of Israel? Did a pagan god make the 13th and the 15th of Nisan?

I'm not under the covenant God made with Moses, no matter how much you'd like to force me into it. Scripture says Christ came to establish a better covenant. I'll go with that better covenant, thanks.

Why do you think Paul wrote to the Galatians that if they had themselves circumcised, Christ would do them no good?

46 posted on 08/19/2008 9:12:42 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
Scripture says Christ came to establish a better covenant. I'll go with that better covenant, thanks.

cite please

The feast days are commanded by YHvH forever.

I don't believe impugning the Holy Word of Elohim
with Pagan feast days is praising the Holy Name of HaShem.

Easter and Christmas are of haSatan not YHvH.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
47 posted on 08/19/2008 9:17:48 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: vladimir998
Christians were released from exclusively Jewish requirements: kosher laws for instance.

Kosher laws are not scriptural.

Also, in case you didn’t know - and apparently you don’t - Christians had ceased to celebrate most or all Jewish feast days before both Constantine and Augustine.

To some extent....you are correct. Those that continued to honor The Lord God and His Feast Days were persecuted....sometimes killed. Some small factions escaped the notice of Imperial Rome and continued with their observances though.

What you find is a rather clear sweeping away of Jewish requirements for Christians.

Chapters and verses....please? We'll take them one by one.

Again, in Acts, Jesus did away with Jewish requirements.

Chapter and verse, please?

Judaizers were doctrinally wrong and often mistakenly placed works righteousness (based on Mosaic law and Jewish practice) in the way of salvation by free grace.

Can you give me some specifics. Do not include Kosher as that is not scriptural. Everyone knows that.

No, those who disobediently maintained Judaizing practices were called what they were and no pagan beliefs were placed on them at all.

Well....I see much of the problem here is hatred of the Jews. Did you know that Our Lord, the Apostles and much of the First Century Church were Jewish? They still practiced their religion except for the sacrificial part that Our Lord had done away with. Did you know that multitudes of Jews were added daily to the Church shortly after Shavuot?

No. If it was Biblical someone orthodox over the last 2000 years would have said so. Instead, we only hear this from the fringes of modernist restorationist movements, Judaizing sects and assorted wackos.

You're not calling me a wacko....are you? Good!

Good for them. There’s no reason to observe things now made manifestly better in Christ’s Incarnation, Atonement and Resurrection.

Instead of platitudes I expected some scripture that would back up your assertions. Oh well..........maybe you'll respond with some.

48 posted on 08/19/2008 9:21:04 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: vladimir998

The Romans crucified criminals for years by tying them to crosses beside roads. When they got to Jesus they used nails. The Romans guarded his tomb in the hill. His body was not found when they opened it. That was the beginning of Christianity. There were many corrupt Greeks, Jews, Romans, etc. around at that time. A lot of Christ’s disciples and Apostles got killed. But not all. The Bible is what happened and still happens right now. No change is possible for mortals unless we change.


49 posted on 08/19/2008 9:22:41 PM PDT by BobS
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To: vladimir998; XeniaSt
“Yah’shua did not rise from the dead on Easter.” ***Yeah, actually He did.***

You got some scriptures that will show Him rising on Easter? I got plenty that show Him not!

50 posted on 08/19/2008 9:24:38 PM PDT by Diego1618
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