Posted on 08/19/2008 2:14:37 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
You wrote:
“Like I said.....whatever. Go and pick a fight with someone else, someone who’s in the mood for it.”
YOU posted to me.
Would someone please tell me where God's Holy Festivals and Sabbaths were eliminated. They were established in [Leviticus 23] for "All Your Generations"....forever!
Still fighting the good fight I see...and making so much sense as you go about it!
.....Ping-Pong
Well.....does that mean that Israelites are to continue in the observance of God's Festivals and Sabbaths....but no one else is? Why would God do something that silly? As far as I can determine.....His commands regarding His Holy Day observances were never rescinded.....for anyone. The early Church continued observing them well into the second and third centuries....being taught to do this by none other than the last living Apostle, John. Didn't he get the word?
I doubt that the apostles or first century Christians (especially the Gentile churches) observed them past the time of Acts 28. The feasts of Lev. ch. 23 required either the Tabernacle in the wilderness, or the Temple in Jerusalem -— which temple they no longer had after 70 A.D.
You are, of course....referring to animal sacrifice. Our Lord's sacrifice [Hebrews 7] did away with that. The Festival and Sabbath observances....on the other hand...continued.
“Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the body is of Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17)
Let's analyze your scripture a bit since many folks gloss over the chapter and most don't understand the true meaning.
[Colossians 2:8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Is the subject of Paul's teaching here God's Festivals and Sabbaths....or is it human, deceitful and traditional philosophy....rudiments of a sinful world....not after Christ?
[Colossians 2:13-14] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; This is an interesting verse in that it throws quite a few folks who don't study the Greek to see the actual meaning.
"Handwriting of ordinances": Strong's #5498 cheirographon (khi-rog'-raf-on) something hand-written ("chirograph"), i.e. a manuscript (specially, a legal document or bond (figuratively)......#1378 dogma (dog'-mah) a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical.
Paul...here is discussing made made law...."Dogma". This chapter has nothing to do with God's Laws or Festivals. Paul is explaining to these newly converted citizens of Colosse, some who were previously pagan in their surroundings.....not to pay any attention to the people criticizing them for observing God's New Moons, Sabbaths and Festivals (verses 16-17) which the Apostle is instructing them in.
Colosse was a hot bed of asceticism and many residents were heavily influenced by pagan philosophies that had restraints and difficult requirements. These new Christians were being criticized for the freedom they enjoyed in drinking wine [1 Corinthians 8:4-10], eating meats and in observing all of God's festivals and Sabbaths. Asceticism taught that one must constantly do penance and even endure self inflicted pain and suffering to release themselves from the guilt of sin. These were the human philosophies and deceits the Apostle was talking about in verse 8. The ordinances were decrees from the Pharisees that burdened the Jews all the more. Taste not....touch not...handle not [1 Corinthians 8:4-10].
Colossians has nothing to do with eliminating God's Holy Sabbaths and Festivals.
You wrote:
“Indeed we do.”
No, we don’t.
“Being “baptized” counts little when the philosophy that spews from his pen is nothing more than Plato with “Bible” language.”
And that is a crass description of St. Augustine’s understanding of the Bible to say the least. Notice, no one in his day claimed that about him? The simple fact is that St. Augustine was a great Bible scholar and nothing he wrote could be - accurately - described as “nothing more than Plato with “Bible” language.”
“Have you never studied early Christian philosophy?”
Have you yet posted any evidence for what you claimed?
“Augustine is a known Platonist.”
Augustine was a known Christian.
There is no indication in the Epistles of any instruction to Gentiles or their churches to observe OT feast days. And Hebrews is a Book teaching that Christ is BETTER than these things and that these things were passing away.
I don't believe the idea that Christians who were taught by the Apostles were still practicing the feasts of Leviticus ch. 23.
I don't believe that is correct history. I could believe that there were people who wanted to live under the law because of a deficient understanding of the sufficiency of Christ in all aspects.
Israel's generation are cut off because they rejected Three clear offers to them of the Kingdom and their King: One from the Father (OT); one from the Son (Gospels); and one from the Holy Ghost through the ministry of the Apostles (Acts Period).
NO ONE can observe the feasts correctly outside of the land of Israel with no Tabernacle or Temple. No one can absolutely today prove, by documentary evidence, through the correct genealogies that they are of the generations of Israel — “YOUR GENERATIONS,” since the destruction of all of Israel's genealogical records in Nehemiah's Library in the Temple in 70 A.D.
“When ye be come into the land” (Lev. 14:34)
“the people of the land” (Lev. 20:2)
“in your land” (Lev. 22:24)
“when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land” (Lev. 23:39)
“I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths” (Lev. 23:43)
“he that is born in the land” (Lev. 24:16)
“throughout all your land” (Lev. 25:9)
“and ye shall dwell in the land in safety.” (Lev. 25:18)
“and dwell therein in safety.” (Lev. 25:19)
“which they begat in your land” (Lev. 25:45)
Not only in the book of Leviticus, but from Exodus through Deuteronomy you will find that the instructions to Israel concerning their ceremonial things have a close connection to that particular land. God does emphasize the land promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (which will be restored, and they will literally get those land promises on the earth in a future day). Those feasts were instructed to be kept in the land, not just anywhere in the world.
If you want to observe the feasts of Israel, though, you'll need to do it literally according to Leviticus chapter 23, just like the Israelites did. You can't spiritualize it, and substitute other things, and then say that you are obeying it. Help yourself. How are you going to blow that trumpet throughout the land? Which land? Do you play a trumpet?
And here is my question to you: Are you pinning the observance of the feasts of Leviticus ch. 23 to the salvation of men's souls in the New Testament?
That's a common misunderstanding of Colossians 2.
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
"handwriting of ordinances" is the term in the King James. The greek for handwriting is "cheirographon". It's defined as:
Neuter of a compound of G5495 and G1125; something hand written (“chirograph”), that is, a manuscript (specifically a legal document or bond (figuratively)): - handwriting.
Other translations render this as:
(NASB) having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
(ISV) having erased the charges that were brought against us with their decrees that were hostile to us. He took those charges away when he nailed them to the cross.
The word translated variously as "decrees" or "ordinances" is "dogma".
Now in nearly every place in the NT where the law of God is being referred to, the greek word is "nomos".
So what does it mean? It means a record of debt, a record of our sin, has been blotted out, nailed to the cross, by the death of Christ.
Another thing: In Colossians 2 Paul isn't talking about anything biblical or scriptural. He's talking about man made traditions and practices:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Paul would never call the law of God "philosophy" or "deceit" or a "tradition of man". What God put forth in scripture is of the Lord, not man.
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
The Lords commandments and doctrine are of the Lord, in the bible, and not of men.
So Paul isn't talking at all about nailing the Law of the Lord to the Christ. This interpretation is just wrong.
To be quite frank with you, these days, whenever I see people going to a lexicon and then throwing several inconsistent modern English versions out (all from a very corrupt source, too - Vaticanus/Sinaiticus), I figure they are just trying to confuse people, or act smart, or intellectual, or trying to prove something that in NOT true.
Paul is talking about more than one source of buguilement. Just as you are quoting from more than one source of corrupt Bible versions.
There was NO ordinance of man that was against me.
Go ahead, obey the feasts of Leviticus 23. I’d like to see videos of it. I don’t believe you will ever do it anyway.
You mean "don't confuse me with the facts"?? :-)
If there's something wrong with what I posted then dispute it and show me my mistake.
Paul is talking about more than one source of buguilement. Just as you are quoting from more than one source of corrupt Bible versions.
Paul refers repeatedly to non-biblical, non-scriptural, man made traditions and philosophies. Paul would either have to be the stupidest man alive or the biggest hater of the Lord to think that anything in scripture is a "tradition of men" or "vain deceit". What other beguilement do you see here?
There was NO ordinance of man that was against me.
Me neither. But that's not was Paul was talking about. He was saying that God had nailed our debt payment for sin to the cross and don't let anyone tell you that obeying manmade rules and traditions is the way to go.
Go ahead, obey the feasts of Leviticus 23. I’d like to see videos of it. I don’t believe you will ever do it anyway.
Come and observe personally: 2008 Feast of Tabernacles or watch the webcast.
“You mean “don’t confuse me with the facts”?? :-)”
No FACTS about it. You’ve just introduced competing authorities. WHAT is your FINAL authority for your teaching. Is it the NASB? Is it the NIV? Is it a particular Greek text? What Greek text? How do you know it is a text uncorrupted by Rome from 400 to 1550 A.D.?
Sorry, but you have shifted my thinking from feast days, to the issue of FINAL AUTHORITY. Do you have a FINAL AUTHORITY for what you believe and are trying to teach.
Again, help yourself with the feast days. Send videos. You will not obey the feast instruction for Leviticus 23. The first video you produce will prove it.
Like all Christians I obtain my authority from Jesus Christ. In fact, it is the authority of Christ, not mine at all.
It is a good question about "authority". We basically have two choices: trust what man irregardless of what scripture says...or trust man only so far as it matches up with scripture.
I don't see the plethora of greek texts, translations and study aids as bad things. I see them as God insuring that his inspired words are discovered, studied and understood by those who are his. So we can't be deceived by one man, or one mans translation.
The Lord's spirit leads us to the truth and when the truth is discovered and espoused it will stand up against any assault or argument.
Again, help yourself with the feast days. Send videos. You will not obey the feast instruction for Leviticus 23. The first video you produce will prove it.
You've set up a false alternative. The functions of the Levitical priesthood have been changed under the new covenant. Christ is our high priest. The changes in the priesthood and the functions of the priesthood are explained quite well in Hebrews. Therefore observance of the feasts today aren't going to be the same as it was then. But do I keep the feasts perfectly? Of course not. I'm imperfect as is everyone.
Polycrates has been generally accepted as valid....not divinely inspired of course...but legitimate for historical purposes. He says this....about that. As for us, then, we scrupulously observe the exact day, neither adding nor taking away. For in Asia great luminaries have gone to their rest, who shall rise again in the day of the coming of the Lord, when He cometh with glory from heaven and shall raise again all the saints. I speak of Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who is laid to rest at Hierapolis; and his two daughters, who arrived at old age unmarried; his other daughter also, who passed her life under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and reposes at Ephesus; John, moreover, who reclined on the Lord's bosom, and who became a priest wearing the mitre, and a witness and a teacher-he rests at Ephesus. Then there is Polycarp, both bishop and martyr at Smyrna; and Thraseas from Eumenia, both bishop and martyr, who rests at Smyrna. Why should I speak of Sagaris, bishop and martyr, who rests at Laodicea? of the blessed Papirius, moreover? and of Melito the eunuch, who performed all his actions under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and lies at Sardis, awaiting the visitation from heaven, when he shall rise again from the dead? These all kept the passover on the fourteenth. day of the month, in accordance with the Gospel, without ever deviating from it, but keeping to the rule of faith.
John was at the crucifixion. John saw Our Saviour live again. Why would John keep.....and teach others to keep.... the Passover?
Polycrates is writing mid to late second century. The Christian Church is observing Passover. And....as I outlined in post #110, God will require us to observe His Feast Days in the future.
Re: the reason for the Feast of Tabernacles.
Lev 23:42-43 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
And of the restoration of the House of Israel, Hashem speaks through Jeremiah, saying:
Jer 23
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
Preserved "in the wilderness" for 2730 years, now that's worth remembering and celebrating.
A lot of man’s twisted history involved in this.
“John, moreover, who reclined on the Lord’s bosom, and who became a priest wearing the mitre, . . .”
This is not the termonology of NT Christianity as found in the NT. Sounds like wording from another big outfit. It makes the source of this history very suspect.
Yup! I'm sure that's been embellished to some degree. It's not Canon....never purported to be....but, why do we find some early congregations celebrating Festivals with the Jews?
From the Council of Laodicea, A.D. 364: Canon #29 CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.
Canon #37 IT is not lawful to receive portions sent from the feasts of Jews or heretics, nor to feast together with them.
Canon #38 IT is not lawful to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety.
Canon #39 IT is not lawful to feast together with the heathen (they mean JEWS), and to be partakers of their godlessness.
364 years is about the length of time span from the Pilgrims founding of Plymouth Rock Colony until today. Why is it that some churches were still observing Sabbaths and Festivals? Don't you think they would have received the word by then?
Why is Polycarp so insistent in his defense of Passover....on the 14th of Nissan/Abib? Polycarp, of course....a direct disciple of the Apostle John. "But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna…always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time (Irenaeus. Adversus Haeres. Book III, Chapter 4, Verse 3 and Chapter 3, Verse 4)"
These are questions the main stream churches of today should be addressing......not ignoring. Christian communities throughout Asia minor and Europe were still celebrating God's Festivals and Sabbaths well past Nicaea. Imperial Rome stamped out much of this "Heresy" with the cooperation of the church arm of the Imperial State....but some congregations continued to honor God and His commands from [Leviticus 23]. They continue to do so.....today.
Most people today don't fully comprehend the amount of power and authority Rome and Roman Catholicism held throughout the ages. Christian who chose to honor God by observing his holy days were driven underground and don't have much official history. But there are hints throughout history of those who chose to do so.
Hi Douglas.
Have you ever undertaken a study of just who these Sabbath keeping folks were? They seem to drift in and out of history with no solid background as if they were....indeed ....hiding.
I understand there was a large group located somewhere in the Alps....maybe Switzerland.
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