Posted on 08/19/2008 2:14:37 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
***They if you don’t care why are you butting into this discussion? Do I have to tell to please be quite the adults are talking? ***
Sounds like you are just trying to play the old “gotcha” card.
Besides, the discussion was on the Baptists studying the early church so why are the Sabbatharians trying to hijack the thread?
You wrote:
“Kosher laws are not scriptural.”
The Mosaic dietary laws most certainly were considered handed down by God in any case.
“To some extent....you are correct.”
No, to every extent.
“Those that continued to honor The Lord God and His Feast Days were persecuted....sometimes killed.”
No. By Augustine’s time there were no Christians of any notable size in population celebrating Jewish festivals.
“Some small factions escaped the notice of Imperial Rome and continued with their observances though.”
So you say. What proof do you have? Also, what proof do you have that these groups were not also heretical or schismatic?
“Chapters and verses....please? We’ll take them one by one.”
Acts. Read it.
“Chapter and verse, please?”
Acts. Read it. Read the whole book. You need it.
“Can you give me some specifics. Do not include Kosher as that is not scriptural. Everyone knows that.”
Jews considered Mosaic dietary laws to be from God. To deny that they were scriptural is simply a modernistic Judaizer tactic to avoid the obvious.
“Well....I see much of the problem here is hatred of the Jews.”
I have no hatred of the Jews, nor did I express any.
“Did you know that Our Lord, the Apostles and much of the First Century Church were Jewish?”
Duh! It amazes me how inept Judaizing polemics are. Did you honestly think that any Christian would not know that Jesus was Jewish?
“They still practiced their religion except for the sacrificial part that Our Lord had done away with. Did you know that multitudes of Jews were added daily to the Church shortly after Shavuot?”
Jews and increasingly Gentiles - and in time all of them were released from the requirements held by Jews.
“You’re not calling me a wacko....are you? Good!”
1) DOn’t assume the restorationist groups aren’t wacko. They tend to be. 2) All restorationist groups distort scripture and history to fit the past into their anachronistic understanding of things.
“Instead of platitudes I expected some scripture that would back up your assertions.”
I expect you to have common sense. Kosher laws no longer binding. Deal with that. Don’t dismiss it as not scriptural. The Jews knew what the kosher laws were - handed down from God.
“Oh well..........maybe you’ll respond with some.”
Maybe you’ll crack open Acts and read.
You wrote:
“You got some scriptures that will show Him rising on Easter? I got plenty that show Him not!”
No, actually you don’t have any. All you’ll do is distort the historical record. This is just the latest fad among some Judaizers: http://www.letusreason.org/Doct10.htm
You wrote:
“Please as stated the RCC changed the Sabbath to sunday neither the bible or the apostles did that SUNDAY was the day of worshiping the sun. “duh””
Again, what are you trying to say? “Please as stated...”? What? What does that even mean? “Please as stated...”?
“Processionals of images not in the bible as a matter of fact the bible states that no images are allowed like graven statue of Mary and the saints.”
Uh, Joshua 3:6: “And Joshua spoke to the priests, saying, “Take up the ark of the covenant and cross over ahead of the people.” So they took up the ark of the covenant and went ahead of the people.”
The Ark of the Covenant was AN IMAGE because it had two angels on top of it.
On journeys of the Israelites carried the ark ahead of the people (Num. 4:5, 6; 10:33-36; Ps. 68:1; 132:8). The ark was carried in procession around Jericho (Joshua 6:4, 6, 8, 11, 12).
David had it carried in a great procession to Jerusalem too.
Is all this news to you?
“They are idols! Where did the RCC get this from?”
God - if you believe the Ark was ordered made by Him.
“You’ve obviously confused Augustine, the Catholic bishop of the North African town of Hippo, the “Doctor of Grace”, with Constantine”
You say tomato i say tomato
I would have expected you to quote "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven." Too easy? ;-)
I am constantly amazed that you folks (Catholic/Protestant) will not engage in a debate using scripture. Then when "we" do, you say we are distorting. Are you afraid to display your arguments according to the Word of God.....for all to see?
To reiterate.......there is no scripture (from Genesis to Revelation) that shows Our Lord resurrecting on the day you folks observe as Easter. If you think there is....then show us all! Then I will show you that the Greek does not say what you claim it does. Then everyone will be able to judge for themselves. Game?
This was your post #35 to XeniaSt: You wrote:"Yah’shua did not rise from the dead on Easter". Yeah, actually He did. Sorry, but these Judaizing conspiracy theories about hiding Jesus’ real resurrection day are silly and pointless. Christ rose on Easter. Period.
Are you willing to back up your assertions....or will you just stay with tradition. Why would anyone say that getting the historical record accurate (about Our Lord and Saviour) is silly and pointless? Because the correct version destroys a major doctrinal point in a false theology?
Eating "unclean animals" is prohibited in Leviticus 11, as is eating the blood of an animal, as "the life is in the blood"; this chapter also contains as the prohibition against seafood that doesn't have fins and scales.
The prohibition against milk and meat together is based on the commandment not to boil a kid in its mother's milk (Ex 23:19); it was expanded by the rabbis to "build a fence around the Torah."
For a complete understanding: see Kashrut
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
v>Yeah, actually He did.
Sorry, but these Judaizing conspiracy theories about hiding Jesus’ real resurrection day are silly and pointless. Christ rose on Easter. Period.
Yah'shua rose from the dead on the YHvH commanded Feast of First Fruits Easter was introduced in the fourth Century with all forms of Paganism. This is also the Century where the YHvH commanded Shabbat was removed If you will review the Holy Word of Elohim you will find that:
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
as it was Jewish and Pagan Sunday worship was mandated by the Roman church.
You wrote:
“I would have expected you to quote “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” Too easy? ;-)”
Was it even necessary? Also, why did you make it look like I said that quote when I didn’t?
You wrote:
“Are you willing to back up your assertions....or will you just stay with tradition.”
Already done. I posted a link. End of story. Jesus rose on Easter.
“Why would anyone say that getting the historical record accurate (about Our Lord and Saviour) is silly and pointless?”
So that’s what you would say to those who oppose Holocaust deniers? It is a known fact Jesus rose on Sunday. Again, I posted a link. There’s all the scripture you need. Have at it.
“Because the correct version destroys a major doctrinal point in a false theology?”
1) It would effect what doctrine? Worshipping on Sunday is not a doctrine.
2) The correct version is Resurrection on Sunday.
Refute the scripture I linked to.
You wrote:
“If you will review the Holy Word of Elohim you will find that:
Yah’shua rose from the dead on the YHvH commanded Feast of First Fruits”
Jesus rose on Sunday. Deal with the scripture verse I linked to.
“Easter was introduced in the fourth Century with all forms of Paganism.”
Nope. The Germans were not even converted yet so no such thing was possible. Easter is merely a conventional term used by English speaking Christians for Pascha - the Resurrection of Christ - as is understood in Greek, Latin and Slavic speaking countries.
“This is also the Century where the YHvH commanded Shabbat was removed
as it was Jewish and Pagan Sunday worship was mandated by the Roman church.”
Jesus is God and He commanded that peculiarly Jewish requirements were swept away. Again, see Acts. Also, the Church already worshipped on Sundays before the fourth century.
About the other -- sorry. Just trying to avoid an unwanted encounter.
Yah'shua rebuked the Pharisees when he said :shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach AdonaiNAsbU Matthew 15:3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
NAsbU Matthew 15:6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
NAsbU Mark 7:8 "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."
NAsbU Mark 7:9 He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
NAsbU Mark 7:13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."
Sorry, my mistake!
I have no logical reason to believe worshipping on Sunday is not a tradition of men. The Church is not a man, nor is it ultimately guided by men. It is the Body of Christ and so powerful it teaches the angels. (Ephesians 3:10).
Here is your article's first error: Mark 15:42-44: “Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time.” This means it was Friday afternoon since the Sabbath day begins at sundown.
Wrong Sabbath. The reason the Catholic Church selected 33 A.D. for the year of crucifixion is because it is the only nearby date that places Passover Preparation day on a Friday. This then allows you folks to claim that the Sabbath in question is Saturday. As you can see from the calendar Friday is indeed the 14th [Leviticus 23:5] which is the Passover.
Whenever Passover (the 14th Nissan/Abib) falls on Friday the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Nissan/Abib 15th) [Leviticus 23:6] does occur on the weekly Sabbath. The problem is we know that Our Lord was not 36/37 years old when He was killed. He was about 33 [Luke 3:23] as scripture shows Him celebrating three Passovers during His three year ministry .... [John 2:13][John 6:4][John 13:1].... before His crucifixion. He was about 30 when he began....so says the scripture.
30 A.D. is now accepted by legitimate Biblical Scholars as the actual date of the crucifixion and resurrection. As you can see by the calendar, the Passover (14th Nissan/Abib), falls on a Wednesday in the year 30 A.D. and these same scholars know that Our Lord was born about 4 B.C. based on other historical events.
[John 19:31] The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
This means that the Sabbath in question was actually the first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread [Leviticus 23:6] and that year it fell on a Thursday! Therefore, the crucifixion occurred on a Wednesday afternoon....the 14th of Nissan/Abib, the Passover. This also means that if Our lord was true to His word [Matthew 12:40] He arose late on the weekly Sabbath and that is evidenced by scripture also:
[Matthew 28:1] Douay/Rheims 1 And in the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre. 2 And behold there was a great earthquake. For an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and coming, rolled back the stone, and sat upon it. 3 And his countenance was as lightning, and his raiment as snow. 4 And for fear of him, the guards were struck with terror, and became as dead men. 5 And the angel answering, said to the women: Fear not you; for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified 6 He is not here, for he is risen, as he said. Come, and see the place where the Lord was laid.
Notice....the scripture does not say this is on the first day of the week. It says "In the end of the Sabbath"! It's still Saturday and the women are being told that He is not here! He is risen! Come and see the place where He was (past tense) laid!
Now, you can provide any scripture you desire to attempt a refutation of what I have written. We'll take them one by one. I'm not going to fool around with your article anymore because I have just proved it is fraudulent.....and you should do your own leg work anyway.
You wrote:
“30 A.D. is now accepted by legitimate Biblical Scholars as the actual date of the crucifixion and resurrection.”
So say you. Other legitimate scholars have made arguments - and apparently good ones - that Jesus’ death occured in AD 29, or 30, or 31, or 32 or 33. I have seen arguments made for all of these dates. I also know of a Russian mathematician and astronomer who is convinced that the crucifixion took place in 1085 or so. No, I’m serious. He too believes - much like you seem to - that a Catholic conspiracy hid the real date. And he’s off by 1050 years so go figure! I have no reason to believe your arguments as opposed to believing the Bible and what has always been taught about the Bible.
On the face of it, I find this link as convincing as anything you grabbed off the internet: http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2007/04/exact-date-of-christs-crucifixion.html
Also, you haven’t proved anything I posted to be fraudulent. You’re simply spinning wheels. Next you’ll make a claim for 1085.
The only thing I have grabbed off the internet is the calendar. Everything else is from the pages of scripture.
Here's what we know. As posted in #78....we know He had a three year ministry from the references in John to the Passovers he celebrated during that ministry. We know that he began his ministry from about the age of 30 [Luke 3:23]. We also know that young Hebrew males did not start their evangelistic works until they were thirty [Numbers 4:3][Numbers 4:23][Numbers 4:29].
We know that He was born before 1085 because Josephus and other historical figures have written of him prior to that (church fathers anyone?) DUH!
The New Testament does not provide us with the exact year but we can certainly delve into other historical sources and determine an approximation of the year. For instance....The days of Herod [Matthew 2:1] and we know when Herod died! So, if Our Lord was alive when Herod was reigning He most certainly had to been born before Herod died.
Josephus [Antiquities Book 14; Chapter 14; Paragraph 5] Antony also feasted Herod the first day of his reign. And thus did this man receive the kingdom, having obtained it on the hundred and eighty-fourth Olympiad, when Caius Domitius Calvinus was consul the second time, and Caius Asinius Pollio [the first time]. An Olympiad is four years, reckoned from July to July. The 184th Olympiad was July 44 B.C. to July 40 B.C. and Calvinus and Pollio were consuls in the year 714 AUC which means....from the founding of Rome.
Herod reigned 37 years [Josephus "Antiquities 17:8:1] so we know that from the mid 40's B.C. during the 184th Olympiad it would place his death around 5/3 B.C. This places Our Saviour's birth to at least this time or before. Herod's reign ended when he died. See how easy it is?
But I realize when facts and scripture go against your tradition....tradition wins every time.
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