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Posts by otness_e

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  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    04/05/2020 10:22:19 AM PDT · 80 of 81
    otness_e to kearnyirish2

    Yeah, and if the Soviets withheld aid from the North Vietnamese, you can bet that the North Vietnamese would end up suffering the exact same situation. In fact, we got something similar in Afghanistan when the Soviets withdrew.

    Even if the ARVN WERE dependent on us, the North Vietnamese were dependent on the Chicoms and Soviets as well. Heck, in a way, WE were dependent on the French as well. By your logic, we don’t even deserve to exist as a country precisely BECAUSE we got aid to get where we are today rather than truly lacking any help in our efforts for independence.

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    04/05/2020 9:00:33 AM PDT · 78 of 81
    otness_e to otness_e

    Besides, a lot of those numbers also came from the North Vietnamese as well, so there’s that to be said as well.

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    04/05/2020 8:59:52 AM PDT · 77 of 81
    otness_e to kearnyirish2

    To be fair, we Americans didn’t exactly deal with the Brits by ourselves during our War for Independence (the French did provide us with arms). Not to say our beating the Brits wasn’t impressive by any stretch, don’t get me wrong, but saying that they couldn’t handle the VC isn’t exactly a good excuse. Heck, if anything, the VC probably WOULD have been wiped out by the ARVN if it WEREN’T for ChiCom and Soviet aid. Same goes for the North Vietnamese. So it goes both ways.

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    04/05/2020 6:06:43 AM PDT · 75 of 81
    otness_e to kearnyirish2

    Unfortunately, the communist problem in South Vietnam is intrinsically tied to the North Vietnamese as well, since the communists in South Vietnam answer to the North Vietnamese, and by extension to the Soviets and to a lesser extent the Red Chinese. Even if they were to deal with the Communist problem in South Vietnam, more will just come in from North Vietnam.

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/31/2020 11:59:05 AM PDT · 73 of 81
    otness_e to kearnyirish2

    This is from his memoirs:

    “What we still don’t understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender! It was the same at the battles of TET. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it.

    But we were elated to notice your media was definitely helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!”

    So from his own words, Giap actually WAS going to surrender. It was Walter Cronkite who convinced him to continue fighting. And while North Vietnam WASN’T occupied by us by any stretch, it WAS fighting us. Cold War paradigm, after all. And yes, it WAS in danger of losing the war regarding territory, especially when the North Vietnamese were communists and wanted a Communist South Vietnam.

    You can also find it here: https://americanranger.blogspot.com/2008/04/north-vietnamese-general-giap-admits.html

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/31/2020 6:01:09 AM PDT · 70 of 81
    otness_e to FreedomPoster

    I think the problem’s even worse than 6 companies owning 90% of the media. In fact, the problems probably stemmed back to at the very least Walter Lippmann’s “Public Opinion” thing, where he advocated for many of the same crap that the news media’s doing right now with his “objective press” crap.

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/31/2020 5:07:47 AM PDT · 68 of 81
    otness_e to FreedomPoster

    Yeah, no kidding. And the fact that Jefferson cheerleaded for them after seeing their actions first hand, not to mention continued to cheer them on even when the other founding fathers (who at least had communications being delayed due to how long messages to and from Europe took during that time as an excuse for initially supporting them) began to get disgusted with the September Massacres, is truly disgraceful of him. It’s probably a GOOD thing he wasn’t part of the Constitutional Delegation due to being in France at the time, as otherwise, we’d probably have our own French Revolution, and all that that implies, had he played a role in the Constitution, being as broken as if not even MORE so than the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen.

    And quite frankly, had Cronkite and those news media jerks not tried to paint Vietnam in a bad light, the anti-war movement would not have gained traction. That’s one reason why, even though I’m otherwise supportive of the Constitution, I am NOT fond of so-called “freedom of the press” (they certainly more than demonstrated that right during Vietnam, and if anything abused it while the government if anything was too fearful to even dare try to stop them. Abusing it as much as Voltaire did in France, and he was in part responsible for the Jacobins, acting as a role model for them if their “temples of reasons” bearing his quote is of any indication. When freedom of the press goes as far as to outright bully the state and deliberately push false narratives and be the de-facto state, it makes me think such a “right” isn’t even WORTH having).

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/31/2020 4:59:12 AM PDT · 67 of 81
    otness_e to otness_e

    Oh yeah, and when I said that there were plenty of places during the Tet Offensive that the VC got creamed without Americans being involved, there were even some hamlets that actually had the citizen rising up... AGAINST the VC, and even dumping their kitchen waste on them. To say little about the ARVN driving them off. The news media, obviously being biased against the war effort, buried those stories. Look up this site as well, that makes clear that ARVN, especially their armored vehicles, also played as big of a role, if not an even BIGGER role, in Tet than we Americans did: http://grunt-redux.atspace.eu/arvn_armour31.htm

    Like I said, the news media is NOT our friend, or even our ally, and hasn’t been so for quite some time.

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/31/2020 4:53:59 AM PDT · 66 of 81
    otness_e to otness_e

    Might as well add, by that exact same logic, we lost World War II when we fought in the Battle of the Bulge, which was World War II’s equivalent to the Tet Offensive.

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/31/2020 4:53:03 AM PDT · 65 of 81
    otness_e to kearnyirish2

    Yeah, well, tell that to General Giap, the North Vietnamese general who pretty much commanded the Vietcong de facto. After the VC were decimated as a fighting force during the Tet Offensive (and for the record, there were plenty of places that wiped out the VC without our even being involved, anyhow, which the news reports DIDN’T report. What we directly were involved in was our fighting off the VC within the area nearing the embassy.), he, from his recollection, outright stated that had it not been for Walter Cronkite’s broadcast, they actually WOULD have surrendered.

    And in any case, again, Prager University defined it as a victory not just under our view, but even by our ENEMIES’ view, meaning it wasn’t even CLOSE to inevitable that they would have fallen. It’s like saying the USSR was inevitable to succeed during the Cold War, which quite frankly it wasn’t.

    And the funny thing about news reports is... they can be faked, specifically to communicate the wrong impression deliberately. You ought to know with the burning monk, as described from the Politically Incorrect Guide, or how about the Killian Documents controversy. Even back then, the mainstream media reports were NEVER our friend, or even our ally.

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/30/2020 6:14:44 AM PDT · 60 of 81
    otness_e to otness_e

    Sorry, it had NOTHING to do with Catholics ignoring Buddhists (and for the record, the Buddhists, while it’s true that they outnumbered Catholics, were not a majority, since they were tied with Confucians at most).

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/30/2020 6:13:08 AM PDT · 59 of 81
    otness_e to dfwgator

    Actually, the REAL reason the South Vietnamese Catholics lost the war was because the guys in Congress decided to just cut any arms shipments to South Vietnam, many of whom KNEW they stood no chance. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with South Vietnam at all.

    And for the record, Diem ATTEMPTED to placate the Buddhists, it was a radical sect of Buddhists who were causing all the trouble, many of whom had been Communist infiltrators. If anything, Diem was TOO capitulating for the Buddhists, too willing to back down (though to be fair to him, the foreign press composed of Americans certainly didn’t help in fanning the flames).

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/30/2020 6:08:41 AM PDT · 58 of 81
    otness_e to otness_e

    Not to mention, if assassination was how they would get rid of presidents they didn’t favor, they would have gotten rid of Trump via that method rather than just try to do a [poorly planned] smear campaign against him. So no, they obviously weren’t responsible for JFK’s assassination even if they DID hate him (and they’d have more reason for hating JFK regarding Bay of Pigs than Diem’s assassination because that time, JFK DID in fact order to cancel air support due to chickening out). If anything, they’d just leak dirty stuff about him to the press, including the fact that he slept with an East German Spy within the White House, and get him impeached.

    In fact, if anyone was responsible for his assassination, it was the Soviets, or at least the Cubans (Markus Wolfe, Oscar Marino, Ion Mihai Pacepa, and others from within the Soviet Bloc gave pretty dang convincing arguments for how those two parties were responsible, and is even backed up by the Mitrokhin Archive that had been smuggled to Britain.).

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/30/2020 5:53:02 AM PDT · 57 of 81
    otness_e to otness_e

    Correction, all FIVE of them were furious. Kennedy included.

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/30/2020 5:51:16 AM PDT · 56 of 81
    otness_e to tired&retired

    And another thing, you ARE aware that the whole “CIA being responsible for JFK’s assassination” was actually Soviet disinformation, right? Yeah, that was actually made as a result of a KGB disinformation campaign called Operation Dragon, which went into effect literally a DAY after JFK’s assassination. Ion Mihai Pacepa actually goes into full detail about that whole operation, which his boss had some involvement in, as did him to a certain degree. Just read up on his book “Disinformation”. He goes into full detail about that bit, and various other KGB disinformation campaigns (and he’d know, he also played a role in Operation Ares [which was the disinformation campaign relating to the anti-war movement regarding the Vietnam War] and Operation Che [you don’t need two guesses as to what, or rather, who that referred to].).

    Besides, why would the CIA want JFK dead for withdrawing from Vietnam when both he and McCone (the boss of the CIA at the time) never approved of Diem’s assassination in the first place (well, approved as in signed off on it with full knowledge and a definite order, as Kennedy specifically stated he intended to make sure McNamara and Rusk were notified BEFORE the op was cleared, and even kicked himself over having approved it on a Saturday.).

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/30/2020 5:43:24 AM PDT · 55 of 81
    otness_e to tired&retired

    Actually, the US DID win the war, and there’s at least one other source that makes clear we did, which is that Prager University thing I linked earlier. There’s also the book “This Time We Win.”

    Also, the reason why Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos are now communist is because the anti-war left, taking advantage of Watergate, took advantage of the supermajority they got and deliberately sabotaged our part of the peace treaty signing at Paris (which we had helmed in the first place, making our victor status EXTREMELY obvious, since losers don’t helm the peace treaty signings, the winners do that), which was to make sure the South Vietnamese were well armed. To put it another way, we never lost Vietnam. Our victory was literally stolen from us by sore losers among the anti-war left.

    Also, while it IS true that Buddhists had more congregants than Catholics, they’re actually tied with the Confucianists at most in terms of overall religious population, and at a bare minimum are actually one million less than the Confucianists. They’re not an actual majority (and it’s not even close to 70% of the population despite the reporter’s claims. At most, it’s more like 25%. Sure, still more than the 6% that Catholics are composed of, but nowhere near an actual majority (which I define as being over 50%, bare minimum), barely breaking even with Confucianists.).

    One last thing, the CIA had little involvement in Diem’s assassination, and in fact was most likely not even sanctioned by them (of the people who literally didn’t get the memo and reviewed it before it occurred, John McCone, the CIA director at the time, was among those, alongside Secretary of State Dean Rusk and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. Likewise, Joint Chiefs of Staff General Maxwell Taylor did get a very brief summary of the cable during lunch at a restaurant, but not much else to go by, and Kennedy’s did give approval via cable, albeit under the explicit condition that they notify Rusk and Namara beforehand, something which they obviously didn’t do. Needless to say, all four of them were downright furious). And just as an FYI, if ANYONE was responsible for Diem’s assassination, it was Halbersham, with even Kennedy condemning him and explicitly comparing him to the guys who got Fidel Castro into power.

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/29/2020 8:28:08 PM PDT · 45 of 81
    otness_e to dfwgator

    Eh, I’m mixed with Woodrow Wilson surpassing Obama. As bad as Wilson was, even he at least was thoroughly against Communism, while Obama is firmly FOR communism, and doesn’t even TRY to hide it.

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/29/2020 8:26:39 PM PDT · 44 of 81
    otness_e to dfwgator

    Yeah, agreed, and even if Ho DID in fact “base” his code on the Declaration of Independence (which the term “plagiarized” would be more of a fit), 1., that would make him more of a Thomas Jefferson fan, and 2., considering Jefferson sang praises for the Jacobins and similar French Revolutionary groups, and even personally helped draft their infamous “Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen”, and did so even after getting a first-hand look at the results of Bastille Day when the Parisian mobs were literally returning parading body parts of their kills as trophies, that speaks more of an indictment against Thomas Jefferson than any promotion of Ho Chi Minh at all (let’s also not forget that Washington disowned Jefferson after a while, the latter even denouncing Washington as being “an apostate of Liberty.”). And quite frankly, I also have a similar negative reaction when people, explicitly or implicitly, treat Che Guevara as the George Washington of the Cuban Revolution.

  • Television's Vietnam: The Real Story (1984)

    03/29/2020 8:21:25 PM PDT · 43 of 81
    otness_e to tired&retired
    I've got sources regarding the whole Duc/buddhist bit, as well. I'll even quote them.

    The Politically Incorrect Guide to Vietnam, page 46-52.

    "Flaming Buddhists

    "One of the enduring images of the Vietnam war is of an elderly Buddhist monk who set himself aflame in protest against the Diem government in 1963. The "burning monk" (Thich Quang Duc) became the symbol of a government allegedly unworthy of American support.

    "Long before the "barbeque" of Thich Quang Duc, as Madame Nhu (the "evil brother's" wife) callously and foolishly called it (adding fuel to the fire, so to speak), Diem had been plagued by trouble with the Buddhists. It wasn't that Diem was anti-Buddhist. He certainly wasn't. Diem's vice president was a Buddhists (who told a group of foreign diplomats that the regime should "crush the Buddhist movement [against Diem] without pity."[13]), as was his Minister of Foreign Affairs. His eighteen member cabinet consisted of five Catholics, five Confucians, and eight Buddhists. Of the thirty-five province chiefs, twelve were Catholic and twenty-six were either Buddhists or Confucians. Some of his leading generals were Buddhist as well.

    "So while Diem was not anti-Buddhist, the radicalized Buddhists of Saigon and Hue were certainly anti-Diem. Less often reported, but well-documented, is that these anti-Diem Buddhists were heavily penetrated by the Communists. Thich Tri Quang, the most prominent of the radical Buddhist leaders, was never proven to be a Communist himself, though he was born in the north, had served with the Viet Minh, and had a brother who was a senior official in Hanoi's Ministry of the Interior. What has been proven is that the Communists infiltrated the Buddhist movement, as well as groups who supported the radical Buddhists. If nothing else, the Communists and the radical Buddhists shared a few common goals: they wanted the Americans gone (because the Buddhists thought the departure of the big, hairy foreigners would "give peace a chance"), and they wanted Diem gone.[14]

    "The Buddhists objected to Diem because they saw him as an obstacle to peace (even though the "peace" that came from the Communists meant religious persecution from the Buddhists), but also because of parochial issues: they believed that his administration was anti-Buddhist. It is true that the South Vietnamese government was top-heavy with Catholic appointees in relation to their percentage of the population. But this had more to do with the preference the French colonists had shown for the Catholic population than with any prejudice on Diem's part. Catholic Vietnamese were, in general, the best educated segment of the population and the segment with the most experience in government.

    "Moreover, contrary to the impression left by many journalists, South Vietnam was not strictly a "Buddhist" country. In a country of fifteen to sixteen million people, probably no more than three or four million considered Buddhism their religion. Another four million were Confucians. One and a half million were Catholic. The rest of the country belonged to such exotic sects as the Cao Dai and Hoa Hao, or were animists, Taoists, Protestant Christians, Hindus, or Muslims. A strong and visible concentration of Buddhists in Saigon gave rise to the impression that South Vietnam was strongly or solely Buddhist. No more than a handful of Buddhist temples out of thousands saw demonstrations against the South Vietnamese government.

    "The flashpoint, so to speak, in the radical Buddhist versus Diem conflict came in May 1963, when thousands of Buddhists gathered in Hue to celebrate the 2,527th birthday of Buddha. The week before, during the Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc's (Diem's brother) twenty-fifth anniversary of his ordination, the celebrants flew papal flags. For the Buddhists' celebration, however, the deputy province chief, a Catholic, tried to enforce an old decree prohibiting religious flags from being publicly displayed. Legally, only the national flag of South Vietnam could be flown from any church, pagoda, or other place of religious worship. In Vietnam, flags were enormously potent symbols, rousing even stronger feeling (much) than the stars and stripes do for ardent American patriots, which is why their use was circumscribed by government edict.

    "But in this case, of course, the 1958 law on flag-flying appeared to have been applied inconsistently (though the province chief's defenders argued that he had reasserted the law because it had been violated during the Catholic celebrations), and the already aggrieved Buddhists now felt even more so. Protests and Buddhist flag-waving erupted in Hue, followed by what might be described as a riot. In the confusion of trying to break up the protestors, shots were fired and nine protestors were killed. The actual details of the incident are contested: the Buddhists said they were fired upon in cold blood; the government argued that its troops had first used fire hoses, then blanks, then shots in the air to disperse the crowed, and only opened fire after a VC agitator set off an explosion (or fired off the first shots).

    "What is not contested is that two days after the incident, the provincial chief publicly apologized to the Buddhists, thousands of whom had gathered to protest the shooting, expressed sorrow for those who were killed, and promised that the government would provide compensation to their families. The American consul in Hue, seeing the event, cabled the embassy, "Believe crisis nearing end."

    "Never to be mollified, Thich Tri Quang and other militant Buddhist leaders demanded punishment of the officials involved in the incident, removal of all restrictions on the display of flags, and a prohibition against the arrest of Buddhists involved in protests. The Buddhist militants didn't wexpect or want reconciliation. They wanted Diem gone and believed they could wage a propaganda war to that end.

    "The government issued a communiqué in late May that reaffirmed constitutional protections of religious freedom and firmly forswore discrimination. It had no effect. Throughout the summer protests continued. Some were peaceful; some were broken up with tear gas, clubs, and arrests. The government replaced its top officials in Hue in early June, but that also failed to pacify the angry Buddhists.

    "On June 11, 1963, Diem's battle with the militant Buddhists escalated out of control. Near the Xa Lao pagoda in Saigon, a sedan stopped and an elderly monk and two younger monks got out. The older monk seated himself on a pillow in the street while his associates doused him with gasoline. The monk, Quang Duc, calmly struck a match and set himself on fire. With loud speakers in hand, activist monks told the gathered crowd, in English and Vietnamese, that Quang Duc was dying to protest Diem's treatment of the Buddhists and refusal to meet their demands.

    "Diem did reach a tentative agreement with some of the Buddhist leaders: in return for ceasing all demonstrations, the government would remove all uniformed government personnel from Buddhist pagodas, agree to let Buddhists fly religious flags outside their pagodas on holidays, and punish officials who interfered with Buddhist religious activities. But no press release of the ctual agreement between Diem and the Buddhists (announced in a communiqué released June 16) could possibly approach the impact of the photos of the burning monk, taken by Malcolm Brown and published around the world, often with this caption: "This Buddhist priest, the Reverend Quang Duc, has just set himself on fire. He dies to protest South Viethnam's religious persecution of Buddhists (70% of the population)." It was brilliant propaganda. For many Americans, their first introduction to our involvement in Vietnam began with the question, "what kind of people are we supporting over thing? How bad must a government be if people burn themselves to death in the street?" Quick to answer were correspondents like David Halberstam, who loathed Diem and wrote pieces vilifying his regime. Halberstam's idealistic view of how Diem should govern, and his obvious disdain for foreign journalists (who he sometimes felt were the cause of his problems with the United States) prejudiced him to the point that even President Kennedy lodged a mild rebuke with the New York Times at one point.

    "In his struggle against the militant Buddhists, Diem had a dubious ally in the person of his brother and chief political advisor, Ngo Dinh Nhu. While Diem alternated between being dismissive of Buddhist complaints--saying they were demanding rights they already had--and trying to appease his opponents, Nhu and his wife took a harder line--and one that made for good copy. Madame Nhu's comments about the "barbequing" and "let them burn and we shall clap our hands," and her husband's addition that he would gladly supply the gasoline for more such barbecues, received greater press coverage and attention than Diem's attempts to settle the disputes.

    "Meanwhile, militant Buddhist mobs continued to forment dissent against Diem. They threw rocks at the police, knowing the reaction would be swift and newsworthy. More monks lit themselves up in towns where there had not been any repression by the government. On August 18, some 20,000 protestors massed around the Xa Loi pagoda, the largest in Saigon, with militant monks calling for the overthrow of Diem's government. Diem declined to have the mob broken up, showing the restraint he had promised to American Ambassador Frederick Noting (who had not yet been replaced by Henry Cabot Lodge). But it bought him little credit with his American critics, and it prompted many in South Vietnam's government, among them his brother Nhu, to think Diem was too soft.

    "On August 21, 1963, under cover of darkness, Vietnamese police and Special Forces, answering to Nhu, launched a series of raids against Buddhist pagodas, making hundreds of arrests and injuring thousands. Nhu struck during the interval when American ambassador Frederick Noting was making way for Henry Cabot Lodge. Nolting had told Lodge that Diem had agreed to do everythinghe could to pacify the Buddhists. Nolting felt betrayed and foolish, given Nhu's crackdown, and Lodge came to Saigon considering Diem a liar. In his first report from South Vietnam, Lodge passed along comments from Vietnamese generals and government officials calling for Nhu's removal from Diem's government."

    Sources

    13. Mark Moyar, Triumph Forsaken

    14. Ibid.
  • Jane Fonda's induction into Women's Hall of Fame has host town threatening to pull support

    03/29/2020 5:53:28 PM PDT · 112 of 112
    otness_e to Hot Tabasco

    Unless you’re willing to start throwing away every single person who does so the very second they start abandoning POWs, having fondness turn into pure hatred for doing so for ANY reason, you’re ultimately a hypocrite (and I would say the same thing myself if I ended up doing that). God made it clear morality is black and white and CANNOT allow for any grays. And for the record, I’m only doing this because we have a fundamental disagreement on what qualifies as treason (and under the definition of treason, which entails giving aid and comfort for the enemy during a wartime situation, and ESPECIALLY in terms of deliberately endangering your allies to the enemy and selling them out, McCain, as much as I do NOT like him right now especially after what he did to Trump and his efforts to stop Obamacare, does NOT fit the definition of a traitor, especially compared to Fonda and Kerry). Were it any other president or congressman or senator or what have you, whether it be republican or democrat, who did anything even remotely similar, while ignoring plenty of other politicians who did the EXACT same thing, guess what, I’ll call them out all the same. I go by very strict definitions. And BTW, because of that, if I were to hate one guy for doing it, I’d be consistent and hate EVERYONE who does it. THAT’S avoiding being a hypocrite.

    And for the record, sex ed should NEVER have been embraced, that should have been left to the parents, period. Especially when it’s pretty much a planned parenthood vehicle anyway.