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Dr. Frank, I told myself to finish the thread last night and not to answer anymore, but your assumptions and line of "logic" cried out for one more rebuttal.

Your thinking is a prime example of "not seeing the forests for the trees". We agree on the need for punishment of the terrorists, but your inability to see anything else but your blood lust will cause the deaths of many more Americans. It is sad, and you called me callous.

The fact that you so often write: "why the hell do they care" indicates you cannot see that every action has a reaction and that is another reason why your callous disregard for life will only lead to further deaths of innocent American civilians. That is a great shame for if you thought a little more you might see.

I see you are still stuck on the 'white racist' bit. I am not sure why you are so fixiated on white racists but if that is your interest then so be it. My interest is trying to make sure this type of attack will not happen again and the prevention of such attacks will not be due to blind blood lust. I do hope that you eventually see this before too many more Americans die.

We can finally agree that I am tired of responding and going around in circles. You might not understand but I see clearly that you and I cannot comprehend one another and my statement that two people can see the same object and describe it differently is very accurate.

The most important thing in my argument was punishing the perpertrators and changing our policies and it seems to me that the most important thing in your argument was my answering whether black men should stop dating white women because they were attacked by a racist. Well, since I am a white man and I am married to an Asian for me to oppose the dating of white women by black men or by any other race would be hypocritical. Besides,I don't see any reason to care one way or another whether any member of one race dates a member of another race. I hope now you can rest easy.

The examples you give show that you still do not understand what George Washington meant and how are entangling alliances and interventions can be found at the bottom of most of our problems. I will not get into another long historical discussion on how the internationalists in this country and others have wreaked havoc with our country. I do not seem to understand what you are saying and you do not seem to understand what I am saying. I am sure we will meet again and cross swords. Good night, Dr. Frank.

Again, I will say that we see the same object in two different ways. I am also not sure why you constantly refer to a interracial murder and not to just murder. (Is there a hidden agenda there?) Murder is murder and that is evil enough. Since you insist on that hypothetical, which I do not see the relevance of, I will try to reply.

You seem to forget that motive is always investigated. The motive doesn't justify the deed but it is still investigated in a criminal case. Motive is a way to identify the culprit and the reason for the crime. As you stated in an earlier post it is a waste of time and energy to try to understand why. If your thinking is like that then I am not sure where we can agree. Additionally, you seem to think by asking the question why it is for reasons of sympathy for the terrorists and not to try to solve the problem.

I noticed you didn't respond to the mention of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon as an example of changing our policies despite a terrorist attack. You also say that you do not see how the matter of entangling alliaces are relevent now since we were attacked by a foreign power. This is another point that we are not on the same wavelength. I see this as a vitally relevent point because it is our constant involvement in places around the world that has brought this attack home.

If you do agree with what General Washington said then I am sure you would agree that that would mean bringing our troops back home from around the world, stop foreign aid and military weapon sales to any country, and the main and only priority of the US military would be the defense of America.

We can continue this thread for however long you want, but I doubt we will come to a meeting of the minds. I see you as wanting to blindly lash out without thought or concern to the future. You see me as being callous to the dead and, somehow, of being a racist.

The glory of a Nation is its virtue.

Dr. Frank, I didn't comment on your 'hypothetical' as I didn't see the relevance to the thread we were on. I am married to someone of a different race so I guess I could fit into that hypothetical of yours. Like I said, two people can look at the same object and have two different views of it.

It appears that you wish to continue following the same policies, no matter the cost, because to change them would be to 'vindicate' the actions of the terrorists. It is prideful and foolish to continue to follow a path in life that is harmful just because someone you don't like tells you what you are doing is wrong.

You say that you agree with General Washington's farewell address, but your responses do not appear to support that. I agree let us quickly and selectively punish the terrorists with or without a "coalition" then let us return to the Constitution and correct the policies that brought us to this point. General Washington called for economic relations with all that would conduct trade on a fair basis and he called for no entangling alliances with anyone and an armed and vigilent neutrality.

Our affection for certain foreign countries must not blind us to their defects or to the fact that their interests are not our interests and America's interests must be paramount in the mind of all Americans. General Washington warned us of the pernacious effects of foreign influence upon our government and our people. It is time to listen to General Washington.

Our country's strength must come from its moral might and not its military might as a survivor of WTC wrote. The glory of a nation is its virtue.

I am afraid you have me beat, Dr. Frank. It is one of those instances where two people can view the same object and come up with two different descriptions of that same object.

Since so many wish to retaliate, which is a normal human reaction,I don't see the need why I should join the chorus. I do believe it necessary to point out, despite the unpopularity of such an opinion, that I believe it is our policies that have brought this problem home to America. Does that justify the actions of the terrorists? Of course not. However, because they attacked does that mean we shouldn't review or try to understand why because that might "vindicate" their actions? I am afraid that would be exercising a little too much false pride on our part.

I will give an example. The attack on the Marine Barracks in Lebanon where over 230 of my fellow Marines were murdered. Did we retaliate, yes, and we corrected the wrong policy of being in Lebanon and left. Was it a little shameful, yes, but sometimes we have to shallow our pride if our path has been wrong. Again, I say that doesn't justify the deaths of those or any innocent people.

The purpose of my lengthy history points was to show that we have intervened anywhere and everywhere for over 50 years. We have lost countless men and spent countless amounts of tax dollars to support the messianic vision of many in our government. Innocents have died here and innocents have died in other places due to this. We have to return to the wisdom of our forefathers. Yes, punish justly the perps but then rethink our policies even if it means shallowing some false pride.

If this "rethinking of our policies" means leaving Europe, Korea, Japan, the Middle East and Israel then so be it. Does it mean "abandoning" our "friends"? Yes, if "abandoning" means they have to stand up for themselves. We have been the milch sow of these leeches for too long and they are not worth the life of anymore Americans. This policy would require that we do not dictate to other nations how they should live their lives. However, an America First policy requires due and unceasing vigilence on the part of the American people.

Then if we are attacked we can follow the traditional just war doctrine so strongly enunciated by the Catholic Church. Which is: "-the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation must be lasting, grave and certain; -all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective. -there must be serious prospects of success; -the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition..." Additionally, "-non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely...Thus the extermination of a people, nation or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin..."

I do not direct that at you, Dr. Frank, but many of the mindless comments of others. Good night, Dr. Frank.

The glory of a nation is its virtue.

I am happy that you could logically respond to my brief agreement with the article. If you have any other response that might convince me of the correctness of your beliefs then please respond again.

This constant name-calling of traitors,etc. reminds me of the same people who burned down my grandfather's barn in Pennyslvania because he was of German descent and, while his son was in the 1st Division in the trenches of France. The problem is not pro-Serb or anti-Serb, the problem is America's endless cycle of interventions. As the old saying goes: Perpetual war for perpetual peace.

Mr. Malic tells the truth again. This is not the simplistic blame America first as many now say. This is the total awareness that our imperial government has and is acting immorally and unconstitionally.

I must apologize to you, Dr. Frank, if I have insulted you or acted in a patronizing manner. Apparently, your anger has gotten the best of you and I will not take any of the things that you have said personally.

One thing that I will not let stand though is your accusation that I have no concern for our dead. You and I can disagree but to deliberately state something like you did without knowledge of myself is deplorable conduct. It is precisely my concern for the dead and for the living in America that causes me to want to seek justice for the dead and to "correct the policies" so this doesn't happen again. I am opposed to blind, unthinking retalitory acts that only worsen the situation instead of solving the problem. Blood lust and revenge solve nothing.

If you do not understand what I was trying to say then I will say it was my fault. However, the blood lust needs to end and we must act justly based upon our Christian faith and our Constitution. There is such a thing as the 'just war doctrine' and that must once again be used as a basis for any war we embark on.

It is easy to demand the death of others when you will not be the one dying or doing the killing. Being a grunt is not the easiest of jobs and when we send out troops in I want to make sure that it is for justice and not for revenge and that there will be no more need to send the troops in. If you cannot see that it is our imperial policies of our government for the past 60 years that is causing our servicemen to die and, now, for our country to be attack then there is little we can agree on.

Thank you, Dr. Frank, for your lengthy reply to my relatively short post.

On the one hand you speak of my "insulting you" because I mentioned Arabs and then you talk about killing terrorists and 'radical islamicists' (and who would those be?)and you mention 'abandoning Israel' and the Israelis being anhilitated. Well, now, where is Israel and what is the ethnic make-up of those countries surrounding Israel? Dr. Frank! You know what? I think they are Arabs. Or maybe you think the Serbs or the Greeks or the Bulgars will come down and destroy Israel. Please, don't try to play two sides of the coin.

The history you relate is good, solid standard history that has been taught in governmental schools for the past 50 years. You mention U-boats terrorizing the East Coast and my having to tape my windows here on the West Coast. However, the extent of the Japanese attack was a few shells from a submarine off Santa Barbara. I do think I am safe. Let's get down to the real fallacies of this history.

The Americans in pre-WWII were terribly opposed to our involvement in the European War. Dear Franklin and his cronies were desperately anxious for us to enter the war to help Uncle Joe. Considering that Roosevelt's closest advisor was Harry Hopkins with known communist sympathies and the State Department was staffed with men like Harry Dexter White, known communists, and others; their desire to enter the war to help Uncle Joe was understandable. Hitler would not accomodate the wishes of FDR and his deliberate circumvention of the Constitution and the will of the people. We can talk about Lend-Lease, the occupation of Iceland and our assistance to the convoys pre-WWII to Britain.

Since Hitler wouldn't respond to the provocations of Roosevelt, dear FDR, had to find another way to enter the war. He looked to Asia. Japan was an easy target to incite due to their precarious position in regards to raw materials. FDR embargoed oil, steel, etc and he knew the result would be an attack. To naively believe that FDR was unaware of the forthcoming attack on Pearl Harbor is inexcusable. He deliberately allowed the death of over 3000 US Servicemen so he could get his war. War is also good for the economy and his New Deal was not working.

Does this make Japan and Germany innocent by no means;however, the American government was not a 'knight in shining armor' with the flag of the 'Four Freedoms' coming to the rescue. Our brave servicemen gave their all for what they were told, but what they were not told was of the complicity of Uncle Joe in the war and his massacres and his goal of a Soviet Europe. War is an extension of politics by other means as Clausewitz said. If you believe that we entered the war because we were brutally attacked for no apparent reason other then the desire for global rule then you are right the war was only to eliminate the Nazis, Japanese and establish the Four Freedoms and we did the job. Or did we? I am sure the people in Poland, East Germany, Rumania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia would argue with that. However, if there were more to America getting into the war then what is told to us by the government then you are wrong.

Without getting into a more lengthy discussion with you regarding our foreign policy history, suffice it to say if we had obeyed General Washington we would have saved thousands of our boy's lives, we would have a smaller government, and we wouldn't be so hated or the target of terrorist attacks. True, you can say that this is all water under the bridge and, in a way, it is; however, you have to go back to my initial post and my statement that to root out a problem you have to know what the problem is.

We were attacked and thousands of innocent people were killed, if the perpertrators can be found we should deal with them in a just manner. Remember despite what 'they' did to us we are a nation of laws and the indiscriminate killing of other innocent people is not justifiable by your blood lust or others on Free Republic nor is it a Christian attitude. I understand that your solution would be to kill all the terrorists and that is fine. However, terrorism is really guerrilla warfare and that is a weaker side fighting a stronger side. I say side because we are not dealing with an identifiable 'nation' as such. A guerrilla war is waged with the consent of most of the civilians who would be willing to harbor and support a guerrilla movement. There are reasons for civilians to feel the need to support a guerrilla war despite the dangers to them. In order to 'win the hearts and minds' of the civilians you have to find out what the injustices are that caused them to support the guerrillas in the first place. Does this justify terror, absolutely not, but it does mean we have to find out why.

Could some of the reasons we are hated, not just by the 'radical Islamists', are because we bomb Serbia for the terrorist Albanian Moslems? Is it because over a million Iraqi civilians (acceptable casualties per Albright) have died due to our embargo (that has not toppled Hussein) and that promises to the Kurdish in the north of Iraq to support them by Bush Sr.,were not kept so those Kurds had to flee the Iraq? Is it our Imperial tendencies throughout the world to preach the God Democracy and tell everyone how they should be like us? Could it be because we uncritically support Israel in her actions and our American made weapons are used indiscriminately by the Israelis?

Yes, Dr. Frank, I agree bring the terrorists to justice, but your blood lust is not agreeable. We need to bring them to justice and we need to correct our policies. We need to handle this as a nation of laws (the Constitution) and as a Christian nation and with all that that implies.

All right, you lash out. What are you striking back at? Sure you can hit the terrorists and all Arabs. Does that solve the problem? No. In the round about and unclear way of mine I was trying to get to the point that we are reaping the seeds we have sown by our intervention around the world. Did the Americans and others that died deserve it? No. But they were "collateral damage" as the saying goes.

So we bring the terrorists to justice or death and we kill a lot of people, has that solved the problem? No. Do we feel good for awhile? Possibly. The problem is solved when the terrorists can be brought to justice, if that is possible, and the reasons for the attack no longer exist. Our record in solving problems by intervention is very poor. We go into WWI which leads to WWII. WWII didn't solve anything as it lead to over 40 years of Soviet domination in Central and Eastern Europe and our troops are still there. We intervene in Korea and the situation is little different. Vietnam, despite the tremendous sacrifices of our men, went Communist. Now, old Dubya wants to remove some of the sanctions on Syria and Iran for their possible assistance in the war on terrorism.

Well, let us review some history. We support the Shah and his tyranny in Iran and we supply him with arms. The Shah is overthrown and Iran is now our enemy. We aid and abet Hussein in his war with Iran and then Hussein invades Kuwait and Hussein is now an enemy. Now we are back full circle and Iran might be a friend again. Our interventions have brought nothing but further interventions. Perpetual war for perpetual peace as the saying goes. We still believe the line of the government. The same Dubya who was willing to open our borders to his friend, Vincente in Mexico, is now the enlightened leader.

The problem is that we are not abiding by the wisdom of our Founding Fathers particularly the wisdom of George Washington. You say it is not important at this time. I say it is vitally important to understand why we are in this situation so we can extricate ourselves from it and to make sure we don't get into this situation again. If we can punish the terrorists good, but we have to stop the endless cycle of our interventions. We have to be true to our founding and our Christian faith.

If you look at Sinkspur's quote you will see that he said something about "motivating the pigsty". Since pigs live in a pigsty and since pigs are not human then I am safe in believing he meant what I said. Referring to people like that makes it only easier to kill them. Since I see Kahane's picture on this thread and his murderous beliefs about Arabs he would fit well into the PLO exhibit. They are both one of the same and neither deserve the money or weapons from the US.

There is enough evil in the Middle East to be spread around and unless America gets out of this deadly cycle of attacks and revenge attacks and sticks to the wisdom of George Washington then we will be forever drawn into that cycle. Israel might be thought by some to be the innocent victim of unwarranted violence and the Arabs might be thought the innocent victims of Jewish terror by others but it is not the concern of America. This cycle has to be broken by the Jews and Arabs themselves just like the situation in Ireland has to be resolved by the parties involved. The only true way that both will be solved will be by abiding by the teachings of Christ and not the revenge teachings of both sides. Americans have to remember that God and America must come first and not Israel or Palestine or any other country.

I thank you, sinkspur, you have shown me, through your intelligent use of words and elegent photography, that all Palestinians are sub-human. That they do not deserve the privilege of living with a superior people. Oh, wait! Where have I heard that before? You know it sounds like something Julius Streicher might have said. I guess the difference is the Israelis and the Israeli-firsters are saying it. You know, I get it now. It is bad when Nazis say it about Jews, but it is okay when Israelis say it about anyone else. You have convinced me sinkspur!

I do remember a quote from PM Sharon stating that no one has a right to criticize Israel but Israel has a right to criticize others. It would be nice if the Israel-firsters were not so bent on promoting the cause of Israel and would think of America once in a while.

I want to thank, Sinkspur, again for adding to me resume of names that I have been called. I have never been called a PLA sympathizer, I guess asking for justice for both sides and thinking of America first makes one a PLA sympthazier. Like I thought this attack, though terrible for this country, was a boon for Israel and the Israel-firsters.

What freedoms are we fighting for? Ashcroft and the Dubya team are about to increase restrictions and they will keep the borders open. Your thoughts will soon see our military be like the Romans near the end. The country was Rome but the military was foreign. We are losing are minds in the media rush to war against a noun.

The wisdom of the writer is beyond compare.

One asks questions like who, what, where and why in order to solve or define a problem. One needs to ask these questions in order to find a lasting solution to a problem. For example, if one is overweight: who: I am the problem, I am fat; what: I am overweight if I stay this way I could die; Why: I eat too much and I don't exercise. Do you know understand the process? You ask questions in order to find solutions.

The question why is of prime importance, if we are going to find a lasting solution and not just another mess on the merry-go-round of American foreign policy. The question why is not question of weak-kneed peaceniks but of dedicated American patriots who see the errors and immoralities of our policies and who have served this country in her military.

Many of you are so anxious to send someone else to fight these battles but you are not willing to do it yourself. So bloodthirsty, but without the stomach to do the killing yourself. You know that sounds like a good politician, sort of Clintonesque.

Agreed, the Mexican government only wants from the US. We do not need anything from them but hopefully a few people will wake up and see that Mexico is not our friend and never has been. What they want is our greenbacks and a place for their unwanted.

It is not necessary to become Amish or an orthodox Jew to dress modestly for either men or women. It used to be a common occurrance but it isn't now. If you go to a Catholic Church that is more orthodox you will see that they have a dress code for both sexes.

It is the simple fact that the Christian West have lost their sense of the divine and their sense that the their bodies are gifts and temples of God. We need to respect Him by showing respect for ourselves. We do not need to turn to fundamentalism or fanaticism, we just need a return to our Christian Faith.

Again, this is a battle in the spiritual realm which first has to be won in the hearts and minds of the Christian West. We do not need to rail against the beliefs of Islam or their fanaticism or their apparent medieval nature. We need first to take care of our own relationship with God then we can deal with Islam. We must never forget that though the Muslims might be deceived about their religion they are still sons and daughters of God and we have to remember that in dealing with them.

Eventhough, I believe, these attacks were mainly in retaliation for America's interventionist policies, Islam does present a grave danger to the West, especially in its post-Christian state. It does not mean that we need to attack and destroy Muslims, it does mean we have to recognize the danger of Islam to our country and our Christian faith.

The only way to properly recognize this danger is by a reawakening of our own Christian faith. An Islamic cleric once told a Catholic archbishop at one of the UN meetings that they would take over Europe using our own democratic laws and take over being a conversion of the people.

Our Christianity has become 'namby-pamby' with Christian leaders not standing up for Christ and teaching his doctrines. Sects that do, as many of the fundamentalists show, have had an increase in membership. What type of spiritual force will Islam show when it is presented? It will show an austere, holy side to the non-believer and for anyone feed up with our materialistic culture it might prove attractive. Therein lies our danger, we must reawaken Christiandom and find our Faith once again.

I wonder what are our values? Is it Madonna? Easy abortion and easy divorce? Is it rap music? Our culture of death? Is it Hollywood? Money and profits over everything else? Is it destruction of the traditional family? Are these are values? If they are then let them be destroyed.

If our values are humble and deep faith in God, hard work, honesty, respect for our history and forefathers, love for family and respect and concern for neighbors then we must defend those with all our might. However, we know that these are not the values of our government that we endorse.

That is why this great crusade will not, in the end, succeed. All we are fighting for is the safety of the ungodly NWO. The newspapers will say 'Attack on America', but those three buildings represented international trade and finance and military power. The poor people that died were as the popular saying goes: 'collateral damage.'

It is interesting that if we were all in a room together we wouldn't talk like we write here. It is also interesting that as the thread keeps getting longer one side becomes more saintly and the other becomes more satanic.

I don't ask that Israel cease to exist or for them not to defend their country. I ask them to be just. You say I am one-sided, if I have failed to demand anything of the Arabs then that is my fault and I do not want to seem unjust. The Palestinians must stop their suicide bombings and like I said previously they must, as Joseph Sobran writes, act like Gandhi to give the Israelis no pretext for their violence. The Holy Father has side that both sides must stop the cycle of violence and so it must be. There is enough evil to go around and it is time for both sides to stop.

My only concern is for America. I keep going back to George Washington, remember him? Father of our Country and all that. Here is some more words from his Farewell Address:

"Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens,) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake; since history and experience prove, that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of a Republican Government...Excessive partiality for one foreign nation, and excessive dislike of another, cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots, who may resist the intrigues of the favorite, are liable to become suspected and odious; while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests..."

That is my concern that the interests of America are being usurped for the benefit of a foreign country and a foreign peoples. Those that wish to base their uncritical and passionate support of Israel, to the detriment of America, on grounds of Christianity do so on a shaky foundation. Their reading of the Bible is based on private interpretation and that often leads to many false readings and is the reason for such a proliferation of churches.

Again, for the benefit of the Israel-firsters, Israel has a right to exist and defend themselves. Palestinians have to stop their attacks. Israel has to stop their injustices. Both sides have to stop the violence. My concern is for America and the preservation of its liberty and the restoration of our constitional republic. We must not become so attached to one country or so hate another that it blinds us to what is best for this country.

I don't believe I am obsessed with the Jews, I actually thought all these postings were related to an article about support for Israel. If I am 'obsessed' with the Jews for commenting on an article about Israel I guess that means everyone on this thread is 'obsessed' with the Jews.

If I am obsessed with anything it is with regarding justice and virtue as preeminently important. I am obsessed with maintaining a policy that puts America first and not a foreign country. It is obsessed with regarding our constitution as a vitally important document to the life of our country and obsessed with believing that our Founding Fathers' wisdom is worth heeding.

What I see from the latest postings is that might makes right and the Arabs are sub-humans. Some of you Christian supporters of Israel should remember that there are PALESTINIAN CHRISTIANS that have suffered at the hands of Israel.