Free Republic

Excellent response, FRF. I'd also like to add that chances are good that if we don't eventually get off this planet, we, as a species, will not survive in the long run. As long as human beings are locked on this one planet, we have all of our eggs in one basket. What a shame it would be for us to essentially lose it all because a large meteor decided it needed a new home.
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Bush said that this space exploration proposal is the start of a journey, not a race. He recognized the need for man, not just America, to go over and see beyond that far hill. He also understands that there is a danger of species extinction if we all cower on this single mudball. Numerous times in the past, vast extinctions have ocurred to species whose only sin was to be clustered here on Earth. At the wrong time, in the wrong place.

I believe that some people have a genetic attribute to explore, to get away, to start new, and they will be the first to go out when it becomes (almost) safe to travel in space. It has been this way for, some say, millions of years. And it is because of this peculiar attribute that a certain strain of human survived a super volcano blast, some 70,000 years ago, at a place called Toma.

Space exploration, I know has other benefits: new engineering skills and techniques, new materials, better computers and communications, etc., but what is the final purpose?

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These are great questions. As a space nut let me try some answers. The final purpose is..... To explore, to find answers, to increase our knowledge, to get out of the madding crowd, a hundred reasons from ridiculous to sublime. And after exploring the universe what do we accomplish? We may adapt, evolve into different shapes, and increase our tolerance for strangeness. And we may begin to finally understand ourselves.

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Are we talking about sending people into the cosmos to live?

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More that just live. They will form communities, governments, societies. They will adapt, overcome challenges, love, have babies, fight and die. They will repeat all the triumphs and tragedies we have, but they will be elsewhere. In time it will be more than mere colonization, it will be diaspora begetting diaspora.

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Are we going to mine the surface of Mars for materials not available or in dwindling supply here on Earth?

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Short answer, yes..But. There needs to be something really short, or totally non-existant to justify the cost of Mars Earth transit at the present cost of space freight. The main reason to go to mars is to learn about planetary origins, some really strange land forms, and later possibly terraforming. But there is another reason. To make space travel cheap enough that the average citizen can afford to go to space. Then come the colonies, the societies, etc.

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Are we going ot find something that justifies the huge expense and the manhours put into it or is it going to be another series of moon missions (i.e. we managed to do some really neat stuff. Now we're bored with it).

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First let me debunk the huge expense myth. The Total NASA budget is .7% of the annual US budget. The space exploration piece of that starts small and increases over time to about .5% of the annual budget. This a very small investment over a long time to improve mans chances of surviving another impact the likes of which killed off the dinosaurs. Next the Apollo missions to the moon were more political than scientific because we were in a race with the Soviets. We won, we hung up the trophy, took a picture of an American flag, and stopped going to the moon. It is not that the scientists got bored, they were overcome by political reality. In all the missions only one scientist went to the moon. Harrison Schmitt on Apollo 17.

Excellent Images, Phil. As to accretionary Chrondrules, I see no evidence for a single cause. The 3 mechanisms I see as most probable are the impact crater spalling artifact, the volcanic glass ejecta (spheroidal bombs), or accretionary processes. I would be willing to bet there are probably artifacts from all 3 mechanisms.

In addition, the "mud" evidence seems to be building. I cannot explain the little sphere sorting and surface transport mechanism except by surface water flow. I am suggesting rainfall runoff. The distribution of the spheres, the obvious weathering of the outcrop, and the mudlike infill of the weathered fractures, is certainly suggestive of recent rainfall. I know that is theoretically impossible but the visual evidence is overwhelming.

Dunno... IMO, vulcanism is a hard sell, I've seen lots of pumice. And I have a couple of real nice samples of ejecta from Shasta, and while it is noticably red/orange in color, crumbly and porous, it's nothing like these.

That is true, but I have not seen any color image of the rock outcrop, yet. However given the light color, the poor consolidation, the spherules, and the nearness of a volcano some distance away, it seemed to be a logical source. This appears to be a tufaceous conglomerate (don't hold me to that) with those spherules being deposited in an ash fall on standing water, water evaporates, leaving the conglomerate, then subsequent dust covering the conglomerate. I have no clue as to the time it took for this section to be laid down, but we know that after the conglomerate layer, there was an impact that penetrated the conglomerate layer(s)then massive dust and sand storms that covered the layer and the crater. That is just the visible evidence. Sure would like to see the Moessbauer stuff. BTW if it comes back carbonate stuff, I will retract everything I just said.

It is everything about gravity. And temperature. My 2 cents is from a giant impact (this crater obviously) as molten rock is blasted into the vacuum (or atmosphere) it will coalesce into a sphere, harden possibly (smaller ones) and fall back to the surface and begin the surface erosion processes. Subsequent seismic activity can account, along with liquid water, for almost any bizarre landscape geology over millennia.

If there was significant moisture or even a body of water then many of these various spheres would crack just as a hot marble will dropped in a glass of water.

I think you have partially broken the code. This stuff appears to be a mixture of volcanic ash, silicate spherules, and loosely consolidated as a result of standing water deposition. The reason I say volcanic instead of impact is the thickness of the deposit. Too much deposit for too few impacts. There seems to have been several episodes if I read the strata properly.

If all that volcanic ejecta was sent to low orbit due to less gravity, the spread or diffusion pattern would very large compared to an earth ash fall. However that statement assumes an Earth normal atmosphere. We know the present atmosphere is a fraction of what we have on Earth, but the question is, what was it during the volcanic activity on Mars?

So many questions, and answers are just beginning.

Hey Bones

Here is the latest from the JPL TV schedule at
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html

Jan. 31, Saturday
*3:15 - 6:00 a.m. - Observational Commentary - JPL (Mission Coverage)
*6:00 - 6:45 a.m. - Commentary on Egress - JPL (Mission Coverage)
*7:00 - 7:30 a.m. - Briefing - JPL (Interactive Press Briefing)
*8:30 - 9:30 a.m. - MER Mission Egress Highlights - JPL (1-hour condensed version of all events above) (Mission Coverage)
7:30 - 8:30 a.m. - ISS 13 Progress Docking Coverage - JSC (docking scheduled at 8:19 a.m.)

Thought you might want to catch a nap if you are on the east coast.

missed that post of yours... that's huge news. There has to be organics around on Mars.

I suspect the carbonates are more indicative of life than any other mineral there, but who knows? The inorganic method of carbonate formation requires heat and free water in combination with free carbon, oxygen and the atoms of calcium , manganese or whatever, and lots of time. The organic method just requires the right kind of calcium loving animal, CO2 and water.

The p=chem redox reactions would be operative on the surface... right? Also, the oxidation is clear from all the rust. So, there's tons of Oxygen tied up in the oxides.

Every where you look you see iron oxide. The red of mars is, I believe, the various forms of iron oxide. Tons? Megatons more likely. Just heating the oxide will separate the 2 elements IIRC.That might be doable with solar concentrators.

If there's ice water... we really could seriously be thinking about terraforming sooner than the next 1000 years.

I suspect we will eventually Terraform Mars when we do go to space. It might be like in the Kim Stanley Roberson's series Red, Green, and Blue Mars. Or as simple as a solar mirror melting the ice trapped in the poles to cause a greenhouse effect.

Oooh! I missed it! Maybe we need a new running thread on Mars Rover info.
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Not a bad idea, actually, and the information coming from both Gusev and Meridiani at the same time is going to be a firehose of information. The rover driver is giving a briefing Now. Gotta go.

Did any one catch todays press conference? The TES is up and mapping the local area, and they have found bound water, silicates, CO2 (A Bunch) and carbonates. Carbonates can sometime be a marker for past life. Some really hugh stuff today.

in which pic? (the "fractured" rock)

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http://www.marstoday.com/viewsr.html?pid=11460

It is down toward the bottom of the image there at

http://images.spaceref.com/news/2004/P2302.med.jpg

It is the split rock to the right of the high black notch in the image.

I'm sorry to hear this.
Look near before you look far.

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I am not unhappy about the tension so much, because the spacecraft lead loses his job after Spirit leaves the ship. That is until Opportunity lands. But I agree that there is a whole lot of looking that has to be done before going to the mountains. Also we are on a tight schedule because at about sol 91 Spirit runs out of sunlight intense enough to keep the batteries charged.

Also, did you note the fractured rock in the lower left front of the first octant? That thing looks like frost fracture to me.

Sorry that should be Columbia station, not Discovery.

There will be a routine daily briefing at 9 AM PST every day, I guess for the foreseeable future. Todays briefing is interesting for several reasons because of the following:

1. The lead geologist says that the geologists in the team want to go to the hills southeast of the lander. Sleepy hollow is no longer a real priority for some in the team. He also said all the instruments were checked out and ready to go, and the geological team was ready to go to work. I detected a distinct tension between the geological lead and the spacecraft lead. He also said that Gusev may have been a lake bed once, but today it is a rock strewn plain. He also added that the surface imprint that looks like mud was not particularly interesting, in fact it was rather boring.

2. The Spacecraft lead is still worried about the airbag retraction, so today they will lift the petal with the problem airbag about 20 degrees and then pull the airbag under the petal, then re-lower the petal.

3. The location in Gusev is now called the Discovery site, for the last year disaster.

4. They have released a new hi res 3D image of the octant they had yesterday as well as the same octant with the blanks filled in.

That is about all I remember from the news conference, some of these other nerds may be able to fill in the missing parts. Like names. I am terrible with names.

"These are a few of my favorite Wanks."

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That is hughly seriesly funny.

Jon

"The berms are alive with the sound of music."

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I like it. Or sung to Eidelweiss "Saddams Gone, Saddams Gone"

Jon

Julie Andrews in "The Sound of Minarets"...

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I wonder what a call to prayer would sound like as sung by Caruso?

Jon

Ooh, yes, she would be very good. But in all fairness, I don't think we're the EXACT same intellectually. But she could act with half her brain tied behind her back like Rush.

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There is an idea. Hire conservatives to play wankers and wankers to play conservatives. Then we would find out who can act. (he he)

Jon

If there is a movie made, I am putting in a request right now that I want a tall, very thin woman to play me. Uh, it might not be how I really look, but its still my request :)

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Ann Coulter?

Jon

Well, to say part of history sounds really large and hard to grasp. I know that it's part of my history now. Some of the things people come up with here are just beyond funny, touching, thought provoking, heart-wrenching...just beyond words, but somehow someone finds a way to express it that everyone can relate.

Someday I am going to get a box (a really big box!) of paper and print out some of the best moments, because I want to make sure that I don't forget anything.

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I did not make that statement lightly. And yes a book, or several, of the more appropriate posts should be made. How to edit and select from close 100,000 posts? The decapitation bombing, the race across the desert, the Karbala action, the race to the Airport and the rolling thunder run by the 3rd ID. The humor of the Pali hotel, the BagCam bombing shots, the suicide attacks, the mounting casualities, the 507th ambush and the Al Jazeera video. Then the tanks in Liberation Square and the statue coming down. The list goes on and on. Which is historically significant? Will history view the reconstruction of Iraq sympathetically?

One of the other things I noted was the sense of community growing in the sitroom, itself a very real phenomenon. I think the sitroom chronicles may become the definitive source for future historians, pyschologists, and bloggers.

Jon

I guess that would depend on how old your family is... same probably goes for the stories of the FR pin-up gallery...

There should be a movie about the FR sitroom. I don't know if you people appreciate how much history you all made. The comedy, the drama, the pathos, the electric moments, and the small talk is a wonderful chronicle of the beginning of the American Century. I cannot begin to express my appreciation for being a part of it. I know that sounds maudlin, but it is rare to be a part of history, and know that you are.

Jon