Free Republic

WWJhD? (What Would Jesus Have Done)

And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. (Matthew 10)

because of what the New and Old Masses have come to represent in the Church.

What do you mean exactly?

I am content with the role that women have in the Church.

Ditto! Men and women are different and therefore have different roles to play. Besides have you seen what some of those lady ministers look like? Not someone I would want running my church. Maybe this is lookism?

You and RobbyS are being far more patient with this troll than I could. Best wishes, but St. Jude may encounter exhaustion before this bloke, DalMi gets it.

Yes, I am exhausted on this subject. I still don't understand why we can't mind our own Church and leave them to mind theirs. It seems that Protestants spend a lot of time trying to disprove the Catholic Church. But, from my experience, Catholics are more focused on themselves than talking about Protestant ways. I was not even aware of many of the differences between us until a few years ago. Catholics seem always to be on the defensive and it's unfortunate that many Catholics and ex-Catholics don't have a good education of their faith.

Also, we can't even agree which sources to base our conclusions on, so of course our conclusions will not be the same!

p.s. Can any faithful Catholic imagine a new single priest who starts at the Church and then has to look for dates in the congregation??? Priests have enough to worry about without worrying about their dating life and then later their wives and families.

Your issues have already been answered a thousand times. Actually, they haven't. Not a single person has addressed the early church document by Clement of Alexandria that mentions Peter being with his wife before she was martyred. Care to try and knock a hole in it or do you just wish to keep dodging facts which don't fit your pet beliefs?

I don’t have to disprove that Peter had a wife in order to support priestly celibacy. Maybe he did have a wife. The doctrine of Tradition does not necessarily mean that we are trying to maintain the church as it was in the year 35. Peter was also a practicing Jew, but that doesn’t mean we have to circumcise our sons, observe the Sabbath and avoid eating pork. Also, Peter’s wife could have died before he became an apostle. That is how they could be together in heaven. If you think that our Church is going to die out because all our parishioners are leaving, why do you care? Isn't that what you want? Actually, it isn't. My hope is that all churches will stop preaching unbiblical and damaging doctrine, whether it be the requirement of celibate clergy for Catholics, the prohibition against drinking alcohol by Baptists, or the "pray-yourself-to-riches" doctrine of people like Benny Hinn. I have a lot of admiration for Catholics ...

We do have many things in common, which I why I wish you could just accept that we are going to follow our own Tradition that has sustained our church for over 2000 years. This Tradition is not something to mess with lightly.

. It's the "thought-of-the-day" for the 4th century that you're hanging onto, not the gospel preached by Jesus, taught by the apostles, or practiced by the early church.

Well, this thought has lasted over a millennium, so I don’t know if it could be characterized as a thought of the day. We are never going to convince each other that either of us is right on this issue. Can we just give it up now? We agree on some very important things besides this.

Your issues have already been answered a thousand times. Incessently repeating the same bible passage and repeating the same questions for Catholics to answer doesn't mean you have any new issues to raise. The main answer to your question is that we rely on more than the Bible alone to form our canon.

If you think that our Church is going to die out because all our parishioners are leaving, why do you care? Isn't that what you want?

I don't wonder why there are fewer priests in seminaries. I know the reason is the liberalization of the Church, not because priests can't be married. If that were the cause, why hasn't the priesthood died out 800 years ago. In times of trouble, we need to hold on to our Traditions, not let them be dictated by the new "thought-of-the-day." (Also, some seminaries are experiencing a great resurgence of numbers. Those are the seminaries which are the MOST Traditional.)

Jeez, you need to relax. Can't we just agree that your pastors can be married and our priests can't.

I believe that the recent tragic problems in our church have grown up in the past 35 years because we have relaxed the rules too much. This is not a cause for more relaxation of the rules. A problem that has developed in the past couple decades does not mean we should change rules that have existed for more than a millennia.

Also, I don’t believe that the ‘burden’ celibacy is too much to bear for anyone who wishes to be a priest. And if it is for that certain person, then he may drop out of the priesthood and become a married man.

I think I would be more of a smart aleck if I criticized YOUR church and tried to convince you that the teachings of YOUR church should change. Why don’t you just work on your own church and let us take care of ours? Our Church is a living institution, which is guided by the Holy Spirit. (BTW, we have answered all your questions and some things are just a matter of faith.)

Just because Peter had a mother-in-law doesn’t mean that my priest should married now. That’s a stretch. As you have said, the Bible doesn’t really say one way or the other whether priests should be married and so we rely on the teaching of the Church. Don’t you understand that our faith is based on more than the Bible, especially when the Bible doesn’t even speak to this matter?

And it also tells us to pray to God -- not to St. Bob or St. Brittany -- for guidance.///Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you or for your family? Then why can’t I ask a friend to pray for me after they have died? They are even closer to God after death.

Besides there are far more important things than whether priests are allowed to marry, like the Real Presence in the Eucharist, etc. Please work on the log in your eye before you criticize the speck in your brother’s eye. (And we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.)

On the other hand, you certainly can't prove that they weren't married from the Gospels either.

Wow, if the Bible does not say one way or the other, how will we know what to do? Should we just follow current trends of morality?

No, but ninenot needs to stop making his/her nonsensical claim that the Catholic church was chomping at the bit to eliminate the selling of indulgences. There's a pretty serious lack of scholarship and logic amongst the Catholics on this thread -

Of course people in the Church have made mistakes. But the Church herself will not. That is the difference. We cannot always defend the bishops and popes, but we can stand by the Word of the Church. I can see how it would be difficult to see the difference. (Maybe it's your lack of scholarship.)

That's like saying that President Clinton told the country the truth about Monica as soon as he could.

Just because President Clinton lied doesn't mean we should scrap democracy and eliminate the American Presidency.

Look, we are never going to agree on this because your faith is based solely on a book, and I believe in the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which was founded by Jesus in the year 33.

So, while people in the church (including bishops and popes) can make mistakes, we can put our trust in the Catholic Church because Jesus (who was perfect) did not make a mistake when he said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church.

If anybody wanted to know how to get the most stable people into the clergy, I'd recommend the following:...

Wow, all your ideas sound like a lot of work. And as you've stated, if something is difficult, these priests shouldn't be 'forced' to do it.

(Everyone knows that chastity and celibacy are hard, that is not a good reason to abandon them.)

What if the particular unit that your son is a member of forced your son to carry 60 pounds of bricks in his backpack for no reason at all except "tradition."

Sounds like tough training for a tough job. Just because something is difficult, doesn't mean one can't do it.

Well, I am a single woman, and ... "Those words seem to catch my attention somehow. ;) -Single Guy"

Ha! Maybe you've confused this site with CuteCatholicGirls.com? :)

1.)If we are to rely only on scripture to find the ONE church that Jesus instituted, why are there over 30,000 protestant sects that believe in sola scriptura?

There are not over 30,000 protestant sects -- that number grows with every telling! Note also that there are various sects and rites with Catholicism -- the Jesuits, Dominicans, etc. Many of them disagree with each other on certain minor points just as most of the points on which Protestants disagree are minor. _____________________________

//////Yes, that is true about our disagreements being minor. I do believe that as Christians we should focus more on what keeps us together rather than the things that tear us apart. But the point is that with sola scriptura the possibilities are endless. I’m sure there are some groups which we both would disagree with their interpretations of scripture. Regardless, the rites within Catholicism agree on all the points of faith and morals because they have Rome, Tradition and the Bible holding them together. If they do not agree on all these issues, they should.

2.)How are you to find the ONE correct interpretation if you have only the Bible to rely upon.

You obviously don't know what sola scripture means. Tradition is important, but only to the point that it doesn't contradict scripture. When tradition contradicts scripture, scripture must win out.

Note also that there are still disputes within Catholicism as to certain theological points. ______________________________________

///////First, where do you get the answer when it is not in scripture? Second, what do you do when scripture contradicts itself? As flawed and sinful humans, I believe that we can rely on the Church that Jesus left for us on earth to help us know the Truth. Please tell me which thelogical points that faithful Catholics agree upon. After all, we all know that some Catholics believe that abortion is OK, when the Church teaches the truth that it is not.

3.)How do you reconcile the fact that the books in the bible were chosen by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after Christ?

They were chosen by God and delivered to the Church. Peter refers to Paul's writings as scripture. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for elevating their traditions above the scripture. _______________________________________

////Why do you allow the Catholic Church to choose your Bible, but do not allow it to speak on other matters?

4.) How do you reconcile the fact that most of the Early Christians did not have the New Testament written down?

So? It wasn't that long ago that very few people had ever owned a Bible. The letters and Gospels were passed from church to church. _______________________________

////So you base your religion on a great game of ‘telephone’, where one word could change the whole meaning of everything. I think God, in his perfect knowledge, had a better plan. We need the Church to be a unifying force and spread the unchanging word of God. Do you not understand the importance of holding on to the tradition in the church as the world around us changes with every new trend.

5.)Where in the Bible does it say that we are to rely on the Bible alone. In fact, doesn’’t one of the Gospels say that there was much more to Jesus’’ story than could be written in that book.

Of course, there was more than could be written. The Gospel of John, to which you refer, says that it was written in order that we might believe.

How do you explain the many quotes of the early Church fathers supporting the idea that we should rely upon written scripture alone to determine matters of faith and morals? I've already posted some but would be happy to provide you many, many more. __________________

///////How do we know what was left out of the Bible? I’m sorry I am not familiar with the quotes that you refer to. But I can’t imagine that the early church fathers were insisting that Christians adhere to a book that had not been yet written.

Sorry, and thanks for the compliment. I don't have time to read every post (as I am supposed to be working anyway!)

Where in the four gospels does it show that any of the Apostles were married when Jesus chose them?I only say when Jesus chose them to save you from giving me the Peter's mother-in-law jazz.

Your argument is obviously based only on scripture when you know that Catholics also believe equally in Tradition. Through Tradition we believe that priests should not be married. How about you prove that we should rely only on scripture? Here are my questions:

1.)If we are to rely only on scripture to find the ONE church that Jesus instituted, why are there over 30,000 protestant sects that believe in sola scriptura?

2.)How are you to find the ONE correct interpretation if you have only the Bible to rely upon.

3.)How do you reconcile the fact that the books in the bible were chosen by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after Christ?

4.) How do you reconcile the fact that most of the Early Christians did not have the New Testament written down?

5.)Where in the Bible does it say that we are to rely on the Bible alone. In fact, doesn’t one of the Gospels say that there was much more to Jesus’ story than could be written in that book.

You don't know the first thing about how countless priests struggle with this very thing; not having a woman for a companion, not being able to physically hold somebody...

Well, I am a single woman, and I also cannot have a man for a companion until I am married. I am also called to be celibate for a time. It's not just priests, we all have sacrifices.

So, the little mother who struggles with her family of five kids, tying shoes, and getting breakfast, and saying prayers, and herding them off to school is at a disadvantage, spiritually, to the monk who sits on the mountaintop, with no worry but when he will eat, which is provided for him?

Of course, a good holy mother is not at a disadvantage. She simply has a different calling. Some are called to be spiritual leaders, some are called to be celibant priests, some are called to be parents, some are called to be single. Every calling has different requirements and rewards.