No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[SoothingDave]

As an adult, I've little interest in educating myself about the Church

You seem proud of this.

SD

[Marysecretary]

I love the old hymns. Even though we have a worship team and do a lot of choruses, old and new, we always begin and end with a hymn. The words are beautiful and when you learn the background and history of how they came about, you are even more touched by the words. Keep singing them at home, if you don't in church. Hymnbooks are found at Christian book stores all over. Mxxx

[Aquinasfan]

Yes, Jesus said upon this rock I will build my church but nowhere in scripture do I find that Peter was the first Pope of the Catholic church.

See the three passages listed in my tagline below.

The passage from Isaiah is a reference to the historical office of the vice-king of the Davidic kingdom. The office was represented by a key which the vice-king kept in a pouch worn around his neck.

In Revelation we see that Jesus holds the "key of the House of David," that is, he is the "power behind the key," since He is the eternal King of the House of David.

In Matthew, we see Jesus giving the key of the office of vice-king to Rock (Peter). Jesus establishes the office of his vice-king, "vicar," or "pope."

This is just some of the Scriptural evidence of the papacy. There is also overwhelming patristic and historical evidence.

[Blzbba]

"Excuse me. The priest pedophile/homosexual scandals have much more to do with the militant gay rights movement of the 20th & 21st centuries than they do with "outdated ideas."


So this is only a recent phenomenon, and not something that's been occurring for a long time? I don't believe that for a second.

[Marysecretary]

In looking over your post again, I want to comment on something I heard a couple of years ago which made sense to me. In Africa or other countries, the missionaries refused to allow them to worship God with their kind of music, dance included I suppose. We stripped them of their heritage of music and guess what, the devil and the world got it instead. That profaned the music that God had given the world. Now you are seeing African, Native American and other indigenous nations' music coming back into worship and it's beautiful. Their expressions of worship through music is now being appreciated by the Christian community.

[Blzbba]

"Which Catholics - the millions who ignore the Pope's stance on birth control and use condoms/pill for family planning, yet faithfully attend Mass and tithe their 10%? If these Catholics suddenly stopped attending Mass, attendance would plummet everywhere.

And? Do you want to belong to the popular Church or the True One? "

I'm not sure I want to belong to any Church, honestly. I was only pointing out that there are many people who consider themselves good Catholics who don't hold to the belief of Papal Infallibility. Personally, I don't either. He's a human being and thus, automatically prone to making mistakes. How Catholics can belief that he's perfect and not to be questioned is something I've never understood.

[Blzbba]

"As an adult, I've little interest in educating myself about the Church.

You seem proud of this. "


Naaa. Neither proud nor embarrassed. just stating personal fact.

[dsc]

"So this is only a recent phenomenon, and not something that's been occurring for a long time? I don't believe that for a second."

It was early in the 20th century when Bernard Shaw noted that it was no longer an act of courage to call one's self a homosexual.

This stuff suddenly got a lot worse in the 1960s, but it didn't spring newborn from Satan's brow during that decade.

I recommend Barzun's "Dawn to Decadence."

[SoothingDave]

I was only pointing out that there are many people who consider themselves good Catholics who don't hold to the belief of Papal Infallibility. Personally, I don't either.

Lots of people consider themselves lots of things that aren't true. If you deny core Catholic teachings and call yourself Catholic, then you are a hypocrite.

Be honest with yourself.

[Catholicguy]

Jesus established one Universal Church with Hierarchy, Sacraments, visible signs ect. Thanks be to God He did not leave us to our feelings, an emotive state, as the way for us to decide whether or not we feel like worshipping Him in the Mass He established at the Last Supper. Frankly, someitimes I feel like not going to Mass.

I was just noting this was a thread having to do with CATHOLIC LITURGY so, by all means, continue to tells us, unsolicited, about your worship:)

It is all about you :)

[Catholicguy]

To be Catholic (See Vatican Two) one must be Baptised and maintain the Bonds of Unity in Worship, Doctrine, and Authority.

[Marysecretary]

No, it's not all about me. It's all about HIM and how He works in our services. I don't always FEEL like going to church either, but I know we go to worship God, not to feel good ourselves. I understand that Catholic liturgy is different from our services and that's fine. It does bother me that the Holy Spirit seems to be ruled out there but if you're not concerned about it, I shouldn't be either.

[ninenot]

First, I did not mean to insult you by intimating that you were a mainliner-Prot. Sorry; I know you are not.

Secondly--you are correct in that the Evangelical/Born Again groups are targets and have taken the majority of the shots in the USA over the last 10 years.

I am embarrassed that the Roman Catholics have not taken MORE shots than the Evan/BornAgains--that's because many of the recent Cardinals and Bishops have been politically correct--not praise from my lips.

But the Galileo affair is strictly RC, as was our hero, Torquemada and his Inquisition. Thus on balance, over just the last 500 years, the RC's have the 'persecuted' crown, by a narrow margin over Orthodox Jews and by a wider margin over Evan/Born Agains (but you guys started late...)

[ninenot]

How Catholics can belief that he's perfect and not to be questioned is something I've never understood.

Neither do I.

As a practicing Catholic, I know that the Pope will teach doctrine and dogma infallibly.

Not in a million years have I ever believed that he is "perfect" and "not to be questioned."

And neither does anyone else with common sense.

[Skooz]

My original point was that some athiest scientists have used their misinterpretation of the history of Galileo to smear Christianity in general, both Catholics and Protestants. The myth they wish to perpetuate is that he was a martyr on the altar of Reason and Truth and sacrificed by the ignorance of Christianity when confronted with ideas Christians did not want to know.

They have derived a lot of mileage portraying Galileo (and by implication, all science) as being oppressed by the ignorant Church (and by implication, all Christians).

[Aliska]

Did the woman run off for a chin-wag with her therapist or did she persevere and because of that perseverance was rewarded with a miracle by Jesus?

We had a handsome, young priest break down and the church sent him to a therapist for a chin wag. He didn't have to go to the local mental health center. He was able to return to his ministry, but I don't know how he is doing now. I felt compassion and prayed for him. I have no reason to think he was one of the "bad guys" and had it coming.

[Alberta's Child]

The fact that it's exposure to something that is restricted to males is what makes it preposterous to include young girls.

You don't send a blind teenager to a driver's education class in high school.

[NYer]

Now you are seeing African, Native American and other indigenous nations' music coming back into worship and it's beautiful. Their expressions of worship through music is now being appreciated by the Christian community.

Native dancers lead the procession with Juan Diego's image.

The image is enthroned in the Basilica

The use of Liturgical Dance within this context makes perfect sense. St. Juan Diego was an Indigenous Indian. Here they are leading the procession of his image into the Basilica, after which, the 'dancers' depart. NO liturgical dance was permitted during the actual mass.

NO guidelines have ever been established by the USCCB with regard to how Liturgical Dance is to be studied or evaluated. Those who enjoy this form of dance may do so, in the privacy of their home or in the school auditorium. It does not belong in the Catholic Church (it is popular in many protestant churches). The following explanation is provided by a catholic priest.

"Liturgical Dancing is absolutely forbidden in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Western Church). The reason for this is that dancing in the Western culture is a common and pedestrian activity. It is a folk activity. In the West dancing does not have, on our culture, the element of the sacred. There is nothing wrong with dance, or folk music, and the like, but in the Mass only those things which have a connotation as associated with the sacred are allowed. The connotation of dance is the classical or artistic dance, or Saturday night sock hop, or nightclub dancing, or recreational dancing, or mixer dances where people can meet the opposite sex. We, in the West, to not have in our culture any connotation of the sacred in our dancing. This, in the West, it cannot be included in the Mass except by special indult in the case perhaps of an ethnic parish with a cultural background of true sacred dancing.

There are other cultures where dance has been apart of sacred expression for thousands of years. It is part of the culture. It is part of the people, not just an entertainment. In those cultures the Church allows Liturgical Dancing because in those cultures the dancing that is done during the Mass is culturally sacred.

The issue is that only that which has a sacred purpose, only that which is suitable for sacred expression, only that which facilitates the sacred time and place of the Mass can be included in the Mass. Thus any dance, instrument, music, or song that is not suitable for sacred expression cannot be used. Folk music and dancing and the like is fine for a non-liturgical meeting outside of the Church such as a youth group at camp or in fellowship hall, but the folk nature of those activities, by definition, is not sacred. "

[wardaddy]

Good Luck, you have your work cut out for you.

When was the Presbyterian schism.....1966?

There are no perfect denominations or congregations but if I see NCC or WCC following a denomination's name, I know it's not for me.

I understand there are exceptions.

A local Baptist church here that claimed it was Southern Baptist Convention recently hired an openly lesbian pastor. The SBC folks came in promptly and kindly booted them from even a loose affiliation without a lot of fanfare except from the local media.

I can remember when Protestantism was much less complicated and the only "strife" was when Church of Christ(not the United variety who are very liberal) for a time thought they were the only true church.

It's a lot muddier now. Theology schools seem to spew forth liberals at the same rate as journalism schools.

[wardaddy]

Well...we still do the old Christmas Carols at home.