No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[JohnnyZ]

Always bring two Baptists with you when you go fishing:

If you bring one, he'll drink all your beer; if you bring two, they won't drink any.

:)

[SoothingDave]

Even today in religious school the girls are warned to be modest and cherish their bodies as gifts from God - don't tempt the boys for they are easily tempted.

Yep. Girls are the ones who end up pregnant, so they are the ones who need to say "no."

Civilization is built upon the woman saying "no" and forcing men to subject themselves to marriage and other civilizing factors.

SD

[BlackElk]

There is one reality. That would be objective reality, comforting or not.

[BlackElk]

Come in during the week and you can probably meet Tom Nelson who owns TAN. He's a remarkable Catholic and a remarkable guy.

[Aliska]

The female saints turn me off. Most of the male saints turn me off now, too. They didn't used to. The church's version of Mary turns me off. I like what I know about Mary from the New Testament.

The problem I have with the saints is that they were too perfect after they got their acts together, even with their little faults, and no ordinary person could come even close.

[BlackElk]

The Church will not and ought not to self-destruct in order to protect your subjective "feelings." You worst enemy is this chronic wallowing in unjustified self-pity. If that makes me cold, so be it.

[Aliska]

That would be objective reality, comforting or not.

Religion is supposed to be comforting, especially when we have tried our best to follow all the rules. It is probably so for you or you wouldn't keep at it. I can't imagine most of you going to church week after week, year after year, and feeling bad about yourselves.

[ninenot]

RCTrad--there are many in the USA (and Europe) who would be perfectly happy to undo the Natural Law. Most of the culture war we are fighting has to do precisely with this conflict.

Aliska's statements are merely the 'baby-steps' version of full-blown feminism, a revolt against the Natural Law encouraged by the 'helping' professions she has visited.

The problem is spiritual, with some corporeal connotations--and it is summed neatly by the sentence "Non Serviam."

[JNB]

Try the Dominican Ran parish, Holy Rosary in Portland.

[January24th]

Catholic from birth. Catholic school. My brother is a Catholic priest...and he agrees with me.

I am qualified to speak to the leadership of the church, insasmuch as Holy Scripture backs it up.

I do not expect the church leadership to bow to public opinion. I expect it to bow to the Lordship of Christ, and follow His example, His rule, His care.

I do not hate the Church. I never questioned succession. I never doubt the knowledge that the Church will prevail. Where did you pull all that from? Just because I think the leadership is missing the point? Or that I dare to question the motives of those who are supposed to guide in righteousness, not in political postures?

Being faithful to the Church doesn't mean never questioning, never having an issue with it, always agreeing. It does mean that it IS a relationship, it will have struggles and crises of credibility. I have not once denigrated the dignity or the credibility of the Catholic Church, though her servants have abused me and my loved ones mightily.

It's easy to defend what you think is perfect. And I'll stand next to you and defend every perfect thing about the Church. But, men of clay who refuse to deal with the cracks in their feet are only going to fall and hurt the rest of us.

Christ's perfection demands accountability for our actions. That flows from the top down. I'm just waiting.

[harbingr]

'..and the Seal of the College of The Holy Cross:...

'In Hoc Signo Vinces'

Founded by Jesuits, 1843, Worcester, Massachusetts

[Aliska]

that makes me cold, so be it

Yes, you are cold. That's the main reason I can't bring myself to go back to church and deal with people like you who don't care about how people feel and why they feel the way they do. I don't like wallowing in self pity and I'm sorry if that's another sin I'm guilty of.

[ninenot]

Confession is a sacrament in which our sins are confessed truthfully and humbly and then forgiven after our penance.

Don't forget the firm purpose of amendment, evidently lacking from Aliska's therapy...

[conservonator]

You didn't give an example

How is a dry county in a predominantly southern Baptist region not an example of which Phantom Lord was talking?

Again, not that I’m making a tacit statement of condemnation against Baptists, southern or otherwise, I’m just making a statement of fact.

[BlackElk]

Make an honest man of yourself. Practice what you preach and apostasize. As you point out, there are plenty of other Christian Churches that share your resentm,ent and rebellion against the papacy. Find one. If you want to call yourself Catholic, you will have to comply or live a lie. Your fondness for feminism is not a Catholic fondness, but you knew that.

[ninenot]

Christ associated with prostitutes after all

For what purpose? To party, or to forgive AND REQUIRE AMENDMENT OF THEIR LIVES?

[JohnnyZ]

Keep in mind that those were my thoughts as an 8-11 year old boy who was forced to go to church every week.

Used to be 8-11s were in the choir and older boys were altar servers, through their teens and into their early 20s, I guess. (Didn't exactly live through those times.)Then they could go right to seminary.

[Skooz]

I would urge you to attend church services this Sunday. Being away from church has a way of filling one's mind with fantasies of how cruel and judgemental Christians are.

Going there serves to dispel such notions.

God can heal every hurt.
He can deliver you from every wound.
He can make you the woman you have always wanted to be.
He loves you.
He truly cares.
Look to Him--He will not let you down.

[ninenot]

How many child molesting Apostles did Jesus choose?

In analogy, one: Judas.

Treason to the Truth is analogically identical to treason to one's trust--that is, the priest who violates his trust as a priest of God is committing treason.

You saw that played out w/Clinton--infidelity and treason were operative with him, simultaneously.

[SoothingDave]

That's the main reason I can't bring myself to go back to church and deal with people like you who don't care about how people feel and why they feel the way they do. I don't like wallowing in self pity and I'm sorry if that's another sin I'm guilty of.

It's not that we don't care. Not at all. It's that you seem to be at loggerheads with reality. It is not compassionate to attempt to console you while encouraging you to persist in your efforts.

You need to accept and understand that God made men and women differently, but that he loves all of us. He loves us so much He came down Himself and took on our sin unto death.

Gods is not punishing you by making you a woman. He loves you. But you have to reach out and accept His plan as it is.

SD