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No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn
Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

Posted on 09/23/2003 7:50:20 AM PDT by presidio9

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.


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To: January24th
You seem outstandingly ignorant of Catholic worship practices which are likely to be none of your business in any event since you seem not to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Christ upon Peter, s here to stay. Jesus guaranteed that at the outset. Get over it!

You also seem to operate under the delusion of Church leadership "responsive" to public opinion in or out of the pews. Not in your lifetime. Not in God's lifetime.

Also, as to the "crisis", we have always had controversy but never "crisis" if that is defined as anything thaty threatens the continued existence of the Church itself. We buried the Caesars and they were a lot worse threat than anything cooked up by those shepherds who have proven unworthy. Christ xchose twelve to be shepherds or Apostles. From Christ through them, there is apostolic succession. Three Apostles were Peter, Thomas and Judas. That there are sinful shepherds is hardly news.

Straightening out the sheep in flock has always been and will always be the job of the shepherds. That some have failed or even been part of the problem does not dissolve the promises of Christ Who will be with us all days even unto the end. He did not promise that the gates of hell would not be in opposition to the Church, simply that they would not prevail.

521 posted on 09/23/2003 1:05:45 PM PDT by BlackElk (Schwarzenegger is as Republican as his wife's Uncle Teddy or as the late Cardinal Bernardin)
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To: rdb3
But where does God prohibit it?

"All things that you bind on earth are bound in Heaven--and those which you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven."

The Pope (successor to the man who heard these words directly) has full, complete, and universal authority over the liturgy.

522 posted on 09/23/2003 1:05:45 PM PDT by ninenot (Democrats make mistakes. RINOs don't correct them.--Chesterton (adapted by Ninenot))
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To: BlackElk
I'm fiscally conservative an anti-Big-Gov't, which certainly puts me at odds with the current administration, which is spending money and creating more Big Gov't at a faster rate than Clintax ever did.

I've yet to vote DEM in any election, not that this is any of your business Elk, nor is it at-all related to the current thread.

I submit only to the authority of God, not the authority that Man purports to have based on Man's interpretations of potentially-spiritual events. Given the number of different Christian faiths -- all of them revolving around the death and Resurrection of Christ - it appears there are millions of people who aren't 'ready to submit' to the Vatican, thank God.
523 posted on 09/23/2003 1:05:56 PM PDT by Blzbba
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To: fml
I don't know of anyone a Priest is not allowed to associate with.

You are talking to one. I can't even go to McDonald's and have a cup of coffee with a priest. All the married women can at least do that.

524 posted on 09/23/2003 1:06:29 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: presidio9
....other priests have no business blowing whistles...??

Ah--there is such a thing as fraternal correction, as much as NOBODY likes it. Allowing another to condemn himself to Hell without lifting a finger is a rather poor demonstration of the virtue of charity.
525 posted on 09/23/2003 1:07:19 PM PDT by ninenot (Democrats make mistakes. RINOs don't correct them.--Chesterton (adapted by Ninenot))
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To: smith288
Im sorry, pardon my ignorance but I didnt read that as "No having fun in Church". Sorry. Not trying to be confrontational, just debate the fact that God wants us to sit quietly absent of outward joy of his presence.

Holy Mass is fun and joyous to participate in. Such joy does not need expression in clapping and dancing.

526 posted on 09/23/2003 1:08:48 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: SoothingDave
Well, a lot of young boys do eschew doing "girl" things, especially when conscious of their peers. As altar girls turn altar service into a "girl" thing, boys eschew

Good point....but isn't there something inherently feminine about putting on a white dress robe anyways? I remember clearly feeling kinda embarrassed & strange my first few Sundays as an altar boy, but quickly getting over it as I realized that it was accepted, expected, and I got to ring the bells to wake people up during the Transfiguration (that's what they're for, ya know). I also had a good vantage point to look at all the different girls in church (large congregation). Irreverent and not focused? Yep. Mind of a juvenile male? You betcha.
527 posted on 09/23/2003 1:09:54 PM PDT by Blzbba
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To: miss marmelstein
-- No therapist worth their hourly fee will simply say "You're right, you are a total victim. You're off the hook." The whole point of therapy is to accept that individuals are responsible for their own problems - not mommy or daddy.--

Or the nuns at church? Aliska goes to chirstian therapy and what she got was just that - the nuns told us the wrong things and woman are somehow less than men. For staters I doubt the nuns told them exactly what they took from the lessons. Even today in religious school the girls are warned to be modest and cherish their bodies as gifts from God - don't tempt the boys for they are easily tempted. The boys are taught the same lesson just in different words: Don't lust after the flesh and respect woman, resist temptation. She just seems angry and wants to find somewhere to place the blame rather than see the error in her own ways.
528 posted on 09/23/2003 1:10:10 PM PDT by fml
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To: SoothingDave
Judas was a child molester (see post 515 if this makes no sense. Trying to answer your question!)
529 posted on 09/23/2003 1:11:07 PM PDT by Blzbba
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To: Aliska
--You are talking to one. I can't even go to McDonald's and have a cup of coffee with a priest. All the married women can at least do that. --

That makes no sense. You have to explain better than that or you can't be taken seriously.
530 posted on 09/23/2003 1:12:45 PM PDT by fml
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To: Blzbba
Good point

Yes, and that is exactly the point. We don't want to further feminize the priesthood by only making altar service attractive to girls and girly boys.

....but isn't there something inherently feminine about putting on a white dress robe anyways?

Only if you think Jesus was inherently feminine.

SD

531 posted on 09/23/2003 1:15:01 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: presidio9
but what then do you have to say about the majority of priests who are alcoholics?

Of course, you can prove this...

532 posted on 09/23/2003 1:15:03 PM PDT by ninenot (Democrats make mistakes. RINOs don't correct them.--Chesterton (adapted by Ninenot))
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To: Petronski
You're so content in your dissatisfaction, you don't want to forgive and move on. But wallowing will get you nowhere.

I'm stuck. I moved on with everything except going back to church. I feel bad when I go to church.

533 posted on 09/23/2003 1:15:11 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: dangus
In the Lambert case, the pastor took up with Mrs. Lambert, had an affair with her on Church property,. She divorced her husband, married the priest, and she got custody of the kids. Mr. Lambert was understandably miffed. When Fr. Haley complained to the bishop, he was disciplined. Mr. Lambert sued the priest and the diocese (the priest had resigned after taking up with Mrs. L.). The depositions of Father Haley were printed on FR. Fr. Haley was forbidden by the bishop to comply with the subpoenas but complied.

Bishop Loverde is NOT Bishop Keating. These scandals are a LOT rarer in conservative dioceses.

Bishop Delaney of Fort Worth actually imported a levender priest (his old pal) from Rhode Island to run the diocesan BOY SCOUT program. No diocese is immune but those whose faith is othodox and whose practice is traditional have a lo fewer problems with folks who think they can reinvent the Church as they please.

534 posted on 09/23/2003 1:15:12 PM PDT by BlackElk (Schwarzenegger is as Republican as his wife's Uncle Teddy or as the late Cardinal Bernardin)
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To: presidio9
Fine, but surely you would not make the point that liberal parishes are morally preferrable?

No, that was neither the point I was making, nor the point I intended to make.

535 posted on 09/23/2003 1:16:03 PM PDT by malakhi (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.)
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To: Blzbba
I submit only to the authority of God, not the authority that Man purports to have based on Man's interpretations of potentially-spiritual events.

You're a Protestant then. Catholics recognize the Pope's authority over the Church.

SD

536 posted on 09/23/2003 1:16:13 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: fml
No priest can be seen in public with me because I am a single woman. A priest can be seen in public with a married woman. Does that make sense?
537 posted on 09/23/2003 1:16:29 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: BlackElk; Natural Law
Both of you made wonderful and true comments about what it means to be Catholic. Would that everyone who reads it understands it and acts on it.I replied with a little more in depth response earlier but it never got posted.anyway thanks again.

Black Elk,Natural Law's response is posted right above the post of yours to which I am responding.

538 posted on 09/23/2003 1:16:37 PM PDT by saradippity
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To: Aliska
I don't understand any of it any more. I don't feel like he cares about women as much as he cares about his priests.

Have you read the lives and writings of the women saints? I haven't in particular (male or female, save a few) but I would imagine they are good role models and have written some pretty great things about women in the Church. Maybe a modern saint like Edith Stein would be best. I would also highly recommend Dorothy Sayers' "Are Women Human?", though she was Anglican.

Then of course there's some woman called Mary who's been showing up quite a bit the last few centuries. I get the feeling she's pretty important. :)

539 posted on 09/23/2003 1:16:37 PM PDT by JohnnyZ (Robot robot robot)
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To: rdb3
Hey! Now we are getting somewhere!

That's strange. Father Juhas taught us that the Mass is The Lord's Supper. Now you say it's the about the Cross.

The Last Supper was the mystical presentation of the Cross 18 hours ahead of time. "This IS my body which IS being given up for you." "This IS my blood which IS being poured out for you." "Do this in memory of me."

The Cross fulfilled these words, and the perpetual celebration of the Mass afterwards fulfilled them.

Christ really sacrificed Himself in the Last Supper, offering Himself up with His own hands under the species of bread and wine - thus he was a priest after the order of Melchizedek who also offered a sacrifice of bread and wine. The Cross actualized this mystical offering.

The Mass is the repeated offering of the Last Supper, which represents the sacrifice of the Cross in an unbloody and mystical manner.

540 posted on 09/23/2003 1:17:04 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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