The Christ of Arminianism

A Puritan's Mind ^ | unknown | Rev. Steven Houck

[drstevej]

***so I must work out my own salvation in fear and trembling.***

Work out NOT work for.

The salvation referred to in this verse is not justification, but sanctification. It is deliverance from the power of sin not deliverence from the penalty of sin.

Ro. 8:1,32

[dangus]

>> Well, have you succeeded in being like Him yet?>>

Not yet. I'm still working our my salvation in fear and trembling. But its interesting to note that you don't even believe that we are called to be like Christ.

[ksen]

...then sent his only Son to them so that his Son would save ALL men.

Is Universalism the current teaching of the RCC?

[Gamecock]

***who would create people for the sole purpose of watching them suffer, forever tormenting them in Hell***

So what are you saying, that He created them knowing that they wouldn't accept the Gospel? And he created them anyway, just to burn in hell.

That sounds like a loving God,,,,,

My friend, Salvation is God's to give. Like I already told you, read Romans 8&9.

[Texas_Dawg]

But its interesting to note that you don't even believe that we are called to be like Christ.

Did I say that? I just asked you if you had succeeded in that yet.

[dangus]

>> Well, have you succeeded in being like Him yet?>>

Not yet. I'm still working our my salvation in fear and trembling. But its interesting to note that you don't even believe that we are called to be like Christ. And No, I can't do it on my own.

>> I hope you have a better reason for His accepting you to live in eternity with him than that you at least partially deserve it.>>

Typical argument with a Calivisnist:
C:YOu're going to Hell because you believe "A".
M:I don't believe in "A"
C:Well, I hope you like Hell since you believe "B".
M:I don;t believe "B" either
C:Well, I hope you have a better explanation then for believing "A"
M:I don't believe "A" either.

I don't believe I deserve it. I actually ALSO believe that I am saved by the grace of God.

[Corin Stormhands]

I have never made, nor would I dare make such a proclamation.

Many (not all) of your brethren have. Not in those exact words, but the sentiment is the same.

I don't have time to do the search right now. I may later.

[dangus]

No, it's not like being partly dead. It's like being partly formed. You will either go to Heaven or Hell, but there is a consequence to your sins: suffering. When you let go of your sins, Christ's forgiveness is complete, and you go to Heaven.

[Gamecock]

Ahhh, the seagull method of attack: fly in, make a lot of noise, leave a mess and fly away.

[dangus]

Is Universalism the current teaching of the RCC?

No, because Universalism presumes apon the mercy of God. I must fear the loss of my own soul if I reject what is offered to me. It's just that I must recognize that some people who have appeared to rejected Christ have done so because they have not known him fully.

We can refuse God's mercy. That does not say that God is not all-powerful; it says that God chooses NOT to use all his power because if he did use all his power, we could not choose to love him (and then it would not be love.)

[nobdysfool]

In your passage from Romans, I see nothing saying, "I chose certain people to be evil."

He doesn't have to choose anyone to be "evil", they all naturally are! That's what Arminians choke on all the time. They say Calvinism paints God as a cruel and arbitrary despot, choosing some to save, and actively damning the rest. The fact of the matter is, If God didn't do a thing, didn't chose anyone for salvation, they would all be rightly on their way to Hell, BY THEIR OWN CHOICE! God doesn't have to decree anyone to Hell, they're already naturally on their way there. There is no neutral ground. Man is born a sinner, and sins at his earliest opportunity, and continually. Man's will is not able to choose against it's very nature. The natural man is at enmity with God.

There is none righteous, no not one.

[dangus]

>>My friend, Salvation is God's to give. Like I already told you, read Romans 8&9.>>

You know, it really irritates me the way that Calvinists always think that the reason you don't agree with them is that you choose to ignore them, or you haven't read something simple. Understand this: I READ ROMANS 8 & 9. I THINK WHAT YOU PREACH IS A PERVERSION OF ITS MEANING that comes from your own ignorance. There are people (not necessarily myself) who know 1,000 times more on the subject than you do, who disagree with you.

I don't see ANYTHING in Romans saying that God created people, knowing he would reject him, just so he could watch them suffer endlessly. It's simply NOT there. You're adding all sorts of interpretation to it so you think it says something it doesn't say. You're short-cutting loads of logic.

[ksen]

I don't believe I deserve it.

Let me ask you this so I don't misconstrue you....are you saying that you do not believe you deserve Hell?

[RnMomof7]

Well, see that's where the whole thing about not judging comes in. CALVINISTS believe they're simply created better than other people; they're good, everyone else is evil.

Awwwww we do not believe that . Calvinists like all other men are created in original sin. No one is "created Godly" . We can do nothing to earn our salvation , we are only worthy of it because God has declared up worthy .

Not becuase they were created Godly while others were created evil, but because others suffered for their salvation. And they offer prayers and sacrifices so that all may be saved:

Only One paid the price for your salvation. The man Christ Jesus God incarnate

" Pray that over and over again, and its difficult to subscribe to the heresy that your own good works were the CAUSE of your salvation.

On one hand you say it is the work of others and then you say it is not by works..which is it??

[CCWoody]

Is there disunity among the Godhead? Are the First and Second Persons of the Trinity in disagreement over desire, intent and purpose? How do you explain such contradictions, webber? ~ Frumanchu

Yes, that is exactly what the thoughtless Arminian is doing. He is actually setting the Persons of the Godhead to war with each other. Otherwise, how can you explain the Arminian's contention that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all men everywhere without any exception and the Holy Spirit is out there working His tail off to reconcile the whole world to God while the Son was intentionally speaking in parables to prevent people from repenting of their sins.


"And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." -Mark 4:11-12

The thoughless Arminian is actually denying the ontological NAME of God. Whereas God has declared to us "I am that I am," meaning that "I am what I have been" and "I will be what I am," the Arminian is declaring that God is not even faithful to Himself. This is a fundamental denial of the Most High Himself. It's like saying, "Well, the Father is faithful and true to the Godhead and the Holy Spirit is faithful and true to the Godhead, but that bratty Son is just out there thwarting the will of God."

It is, in effect to count Him neither faithful nor true. One wonders, then, where the Arminian find the assurance that He is faithful to His own delcared nature "I am that I am." Obviously, he can't find it in the promises of the Son.

Woody.

[CCWoody]

You might be an Arminian if...

You think CALVINISTS believe they're simply created better than other people; they're good, everyone else is evil.

Woody.

[Texas_Dawg]

And No, I can't do it on my own.

Obviously you believe you are able to do some parts on your own (otherwise you aren't doing those parts on your own).

I don't know about that typical argument. None of the things you have the Calvinist saying are anything I say. I don't believe someone has to have a Calvinist interpretation of the Bible to be saved.

[Frumanchu]

You know, it really irritates me the way that Calvinists always think that the reason you don't agree with them is that you choose to ignore them, or you haven't read something simple. Understand this: I READ ROMANS 8 & 9. I THINK WHAT YOU PREACH IS A PERVERSION OF ITS MEANING that comes from your own ignorance. There are people (not necessarily myself) who know 1,000 times more on the subject than you do, who disagree with you.

There are people who know 1,000 times more on the subject than either of us, who agree with me. Is truth defined by majority opinion?

Please provide us with your understanding of those passages.

I don't see ANYTHING in Romans saying that God created people, knowing he would reject him, just so he could watch them suffer endlessly. It's simply NOT there. You're adding all sorts of interpretation to it so you think it says something it doesn't say. You're short-cutting loads of logic.

Neither do we, and neither have we ever said that God's purpose in creating people he knew would reject Him was to watch them suffer endlessly. You're putting words in our mouth, and barely knocking down the strawman at that.

[ksen]

No, because Universalism presumes apon the mercy of God. I must fear the loss of my own soul if I reject what is offered to me. It's just that I must recognize that some people who have appeared to rejected Christ have done so because they have not known him fully.

Ok, I was wondering because your option 3 had Jesus saving everybody. Did you misspeak or did I misunderstand?

We can refuse God's mercy. That does not say that God is not all-powerful; it says that God chooses NOT to use all his power because if he did use all his power, we could not choose to love him (and then it would not be love.)

What makes love possible?

[RnMomof7]

See, I am forbidden by God to presume apon his mercy, so I must work out my own salvation in fear and trembling. At the same time, I am commanded to forgive EVERYONE and judge no-one, in the confidence that Jesus calls ANYONE to him.

This is the most common misuse of scripture

    Phl 2:12   Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

So how does a man do that ? The next verse tells us

     Phl 2:13   For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure

So it is God that does the work that are necessary for your salvation and the works that flow from it

Paul also addressed this in Hebrews

Hbr 13:21   Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And Ephesians

Eph 2:10   For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.