The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 1

The Institutes of the Christian Religion ^ | 1500's | John Calvin

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

mark em, and move on.

BigMack

[RnMomof7]

how do you explain the universal need for Man to connect with God?

I do not think that is the question..man does not "universally" need to connect to God. There are men that choose to see themselves as god..

I think the question is how is it that some men have the need to connect with the God of the bible and others need to develop their own religion or have no religion? What is the difference? That is the question that interested Calvin ~I think~

[ksen]

I wasn't talking about some New Age mumbo jumbo or that we have a spark of the Divine within us.

Look around you.

I have, have you? You don't ever wonder why, no matter where you go or what time period you look at, there is religion. Why is that?

Every age has its pretensions towards goodness. Certainly the 20th century pretensions were as corrupted as any, centering around "the psychology of self," and the largesse of the state, and the inherent goodness of the "natural" man.

I wasn't talking about Mankind's "inherent goodness."

I don't recognize any such "need."

From the article: For, in the first place, no man can survey himself without forthwith turning his thoughts towards the God in whom he lives and moves; because it is perfectly obvious, that the endowments which we possess cannot possibly be from ourselves; nay, that our very being is nothing else than subsistence in God alone.

I believe Calvin, and Paul (Ro 1:19), may disagree with you.

[ksen]

I think the question is how is it that some men have the need to connect with the God of the bible and others need to develop their own religion or have no religion? What is the difference? That is the question that interested Calvin ~I think~

You're probably right Mom. And that may be near the heart of the difference between the Calvinists and the Arminians. What is it that makes a man turn to the Living God?

Calvinists would say it is Irresistable Grace, Arminians would say it is Man's recognition of his true condition and the relief of that condition offered to them by God through Jesus Christ.

[Jean Chauvin]

"Calvinists would say it is Irresistable Grace,"

That's a bit simplistic. It would be similar if I said, "Arminians would say it is becuase of prevenient grace".

"Arminians would say it is Man's recognition of his true condition and the relief of that condition offered to them by God through Jesus Christ. "

Calvinists would say much the same thing. This brings the difference to an even deeper level: Just how does man get this 'recognition of his true condition'?

Jean

[RnMomof7]

Calvinists would say it is Irresistable Grace, Arminians would say it is Man's recognition of his true condition and the relief of that condition offered to them by God through Jesus Christ.

Correct..

Can I ask you something?

When you were saved did it occur to you AT THAT MOMENT to refuse?

I am not talking about hearing it and not chosing it previously..but at the moment when you were more aware of God then you thought possible?

Did you consider a NO

[ksen]

Can I ask you something?

So you want to hear my testimony? Here, pull up a chair. ;^)

I was saved on November 29, 1992. It was first trip into a Baptist church. I had been married for a couple of years, we had a young daughter, and I decided I wanted us to start going to church. All of my life I knew God existed, but I was never sure of who He was.

Anyway, the day I was saved was the first day that I ever remember hearing a clear presentation of the Gospel. I knew it was true. At the end of the service the Pastor asked if you were not sure where you would spend eternity to go ahead and raise your hand so he could pray for you. I didn't raise my hand. He asked two more times and I wasn't going to raise my hand, but up it went the third time he asked.

Then he said that if anyone wanted to know more about Salvation, then come down and speak with him and he would put you with someone to show you from the Bible how to be saved. Again, I wasn't going to go forward, but during the second stanza(?) I went down the aisle. He put me with the Assistant Pastor and we went back to the office and he started asking me questions.

He asked who I thought God was, and I said that God was some sort of grandfatherly figure that loved everyody. The Asst. Pastor showed me the Romans Road but the one verse he showed me that sticks in my brain is John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

That verse smacked me upside the head. It brought home that if I didn't come to believe on Jesus that I had God's wrath over me right then and there. So I bowed my head and prayed to Jesus and asked Him to save me and to forgive me.

And that, my friends, is my testimony.

[ksen]

This brings the difference to an even deeper level: Just how does man get this 'recognition of his true condition'?

According to today's chapter, Man recognizes his true condition the more he contemplates God's nature.

[LiteKeeper]

read later

[Dr. Eckleburg]

...because it is perfectly obvious that the endowments which we possess cannot possibly be from ourselves...

Calvin was speaking to those in Geneva who were the most intense, rigorous reformers in Europe.

When he wrote that "no man can survey himself without turning his thoughts towards the God in whom he lives and moves," Calvin was addressing these fellow reformers who had already agreed that everything flows from God to man, and not the other way around. These men believed they "sought God" because God first sought them, changed their hearts and saved their souls, like Paul.

Man seeks a god, in general, because he's afraid of thunder and lightning.

A regenerate man seeks God because he has no other choice.

"We love Him because He loved us first."

[Jean Chauvin]

"According to today's chapter, Man recognizes his true condition the more he contemplates God's nature."

But, how does he, in his fallen state, come to the correct understanding of God's nature?

Jean

[RnMomof7]

Thanks for sharing your testimony Ken..have you ever asked yourself why on that day inspit of some resistance you got up and went forward?

I believe (who am I??:>) that the greatest difference between Arminians and calvinists lay in the understanding of total depravity and irrestible grace..I would say to you that it was God's grace that was the difference on that day

[editor-surveyor]

" unless a man can see himself from God's viewpoint, he will not come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ."

You mean like coming to grips with your 'total depravity?'

[ksen]

But, how does he, in his fallen state, come to the correct understanding of God's nature?

He comes to a correct understanding of God's nature by the hearing of God's Word (Ro 10:13-17).

Does Total Depravity equal Total Inability? (I don't think it does)

[ksen]

You mean like coming to grips with your 'total depravity?'

At least coming to grips with the fact that we are sinners in need of a Saviour. If you define that as being Totally Depraved I'll agree with you, however, I won't go from Man being Totally Depraved to Man being Totally Inable.

[Catholicguy]

<> This is the judgement of one Wallace Bell. He says Spurgeon is in Hell.

While one can disagree with Mr. Bell (I certainly do), one can't really say he has any less authority than any other Calvinist, or, frankly, Calvin himself<>

THE TRUE BELIEVER FINALLY SHOWS UP

I never in my life thought I would hear ANYONE in Protestantism criticize the following people as being unregenerate:

John Murray, Ned Stonehouse, Lorraine Boettner, Thomas Chalmers, Thomas Boston, J.I. Packer, Charles Spurgeon, Horatio Bonar, Louis Berkoff, A.A. Hodge, John Reisinger, Gene Breed, and Gordon Clark.

Here is a sample of his blanket condemnation of all these "pretend Calvinists" who, according to him, are screaming in hell right now. This is the last paragraph on his condemnation of the great Charles H. Spurgeon. I wonder if Mr. Bell has led over 25,000 people in his lifetime to a profession of faith like Brother Spurgeon did?

I believe there are multitudes of men who cannot see the truths, or at least, cannot see them in the way in which we put them, who nevertheless have received Christ as their Saviour, and are as dear to the heart of the God of grace as the soundest Calvinists in or out of heaven." [unregenerate "Calvinist" Charles H. Spurgeon, from "A Defense of Calvinism" (ironically enough)]

Well, it’s at least interesting to see a "true Calvinist" tell us that Charles H. Spurgeon, that "Prince of Preachers" who spent his lifetime condemning Catholics to hell,went to hell himself as an unregenerate person. It is always nice to have the voice of God’s authority handy to speak regarding these things. Wonder if there will be a special place in heaven for Wallace Bell and his ilk so that the rest of us scruffy sinners, (who expect that if we do attain to eternal felicity, it will be by the grace of God and not doctrinal correctness) won’t bother him?<>

[wideawake]

There are a disturbingly large amount of people who seem to get their jollies placing others in Hell while notoriously slacking off on their own responsibility of getting into Heaven.

Someone should inform Bell that no one constituted him arbiter of anyone's final destiny.

[editor-surveyor]

"But, how does he, in his fallen state, come to the correct understanding of God's nature?" Jean

"He comes to a correct understanding of God's nature by the hearing of God's Word (Ro 10:13-17)." ksen

Yes, when God's elect hear his word they are drawn to him, but when the non-elect hear the word it is foolishness to them.

1Cr 2:14
" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned."

It's all there in the word ksen; you're just not receiving it.

[Jean Chauvin]

"He comes to a correct understanding of God's nature by the hearing of God's Word (Ro 10:13-17)."

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mark 4:9)

Where does he get his ears to hear?

How does he understand the word?

Is the unregenerate man even ABLE to understand the truth of the word?

Jean

[RnMomof7]

Calvin believed that man could not know himself unless he understood the character of God. And that He could not understand God untill he understood God (That ~seems~ to be the heart of the opening) Do you believe that is correct?.