Could I ask a serious question of some Mormons? (Please?)

today | me

[Jael]

No man who rejects the testimony of Joseph Smith can enter the kingdom of God"
Doctrines of Salvation, vol. I, p. 190).

My question:
Is that what Mormons believe?
If so, how was anyone saved before 1830.

[Rad_J]

About the Journal of Discourses, it is not scripture. It is a collection of speeches and sermons. There is no way to check its acuracy. They were written down by people other than the speakers. I don't know the complete history behind the Journal of Discourses. I have only seen the set of books once or twice in my life. They are online though.

It's kind of like the apocraphal and Gnostic writings of the early church. Why aren't they part of the New Testament if they are writings of the apostles? Why doesn't every Christian read them and accept them as truth? Why try to hold Mormons to different standards than your own? Here is a link with all of the "Acts", "Gospels", and other text. You could make a another Book the size of the New Testament or more with all of these.

http://www.gnosis.org/library/cac.htm

And the history of Christianity is sqeeky clean too, isn't it. There is plenty obout Christianity in it's history that can be used to try to condemn it. You can use Mormon history to try to condemn the LDS church also. Men do bad things. Men are limited in their understanding. We cannot trust in the arm of flesh. That is why we all need the blood of Jesus Christ to save us. Without Him, all are lost.

[Grig]

Prophets are not meat puppets of God. When God has something He wishes to reveal to the church, it comes to us through them, but outside of that they are free to form and voice their own opinons on items that have not been revealed. Those opinons are not always correct nor do we demand them to be. The apostles in the NT had their differing opinions and disagreements as well. Although we might have more respect the the opinon of a General Authority (on religous matters) than the opinon of some other, it is still an opinion and not church doctrine.
http://www.fairlds.org/apol/bible/bible07.html

There is a clear process by which new doctrine and new scripture comes into the church, and the JoD never even started down that path. http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1978.htm/ensign%20august%201978%20.htm/i%20have%20a%20question.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

[Grig]

"You seem to be suggesting that women can't go to the Celestial kingdom without a man."

Actually, men and women CAN get to the Celestial Kingdom without marriage, it is the highest level of the CK that requires a man to be married. D&C 131: 1-3 "IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it."

[Grig]

"unless HER HUSBAND (not God) calls her"

Do you think none may work a miracle in God's name? God must personaly perform every miracle himself? I guess somebody forgot to tell that to the apostles.

[Grig]

"Do you consider the LDS Journal of Discourses evidence."

I consider it to be a book. You can use it as evidence of what the opinions of some church leaders were with some validity (there is some reason to question how accurate the JoD is, so confirmation from other sources should also be used) but it is not valid to use it as evidence of what LDS doctrine is.

[Rad_J]

Thanks Grig, you are correct.

So, to get to the highest level of the Celectial Kingdom, a man needs a woman and a woman needs a man. Neither can get there alone.

[restornu]

Del it was never practiced and that was taken out of context for I have post the answer to this on the threads here many times, but you all who have contempt for LDS-

Just over look the post as though it was not posted and go on to another so called fault! It get tiring it like spining on a "Chinchila Wheel" we just go around and the same Canards get rehashed over and over!

You anit-mormons are like trying to swats flies!:)LOL

[WriteOn]

And i don't think there are too many anti-pope professors at Catholic universities.

Haven't been to a Catholic university accepting government dollars, have you?

[Wrigley]

BTW many of the plural marriages were not of a phyical union!

Your point being what exactly?

[Delphinium]

I consider it to be a book. You can use it as evidence of what the opinions of some church leaders were with some validity (there is some reason to question how accurate the JoD is, so confirmation from other sources should also be used) but it is not valid to use it as evidence of what LDS doctrine is.

Some of the church leaders opinions? I am talking about sermons given by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and many other prominant early Mormon leaders.The founders of Mormonism? Those that translated the books? Do you take anything from your church leaders today, or just consider what they say to be only their opinion?

[Delphinium]

Your right all men have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Many horrible things done in the name of Christ. I judge a church by the Word of God. If its not in the Bible, its not right. I have been talking about things like plural marriage , blood atonement, Adam God, Babtism for the dead, Holy Underwear?, Blacks could not hold the priesthood? These are things that the church taught and practiced for many years. All contrary to the Word of God. I might have liked Joseph smith, it was what he taught that I have a problem with. Just because some of these things are no longer taught does not mean that it never was taught?

[RnMomof7]

So, to get to the highest level of the Celectial Kingdom, a man needs a woman and a woman needs a man. Neither can get there alone.

The divorce rate among Mormons is similar to the general population..That divorced Mormon male may have a second or third legal wife sealed to him...His poor ex wives are still sealed to the first husband...and have no other way into heaven but that the guy that didn't want her here may want her there..

That is way the diagnosis of depression is so high in the mormon church these women can not afford to make hubby mad enough to go away..same problem the plural wives had..they are spiritually blackmailed..

[Delphinium]

The Journal of Discourses is a 26 volume compilation of LDS presidents and apostles sermons, covering about 35 years. There were several men who were officially assigned by the LDS Church to record the talks. Volume one of the series contains a letter from the LDS First Presidency (Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards), dated June 1, 1853, authorizing the publishing of the sermons:

This 26 volume set is available on the New Mormon Studies CD-ROM. It is also available on the CD-ROM GospeLink 2001, sold through the LDS Church owned bookstore, Deseret Book. (See their online store at DeseretBook.com)

The Assistant Manager for Deseret Book Company, gave the following endorsement of the Journal of Discourses in a a letter dated June 12, 1963:

In having in your library the 26 volume of the "Journal of Discourses", you have a library containing the sermons of the Presidents and Apostles of the Church. If anyone tells you that the sermons found therein are not recognized by the Church, they know not what they are talking about. (Deseret Book Co. Letter, June 12, 1963)

The Journal of Discourses is listed as an official publication of the LDS Church in the following books:

Essentials in Church History, by Joseph Fielding Smith, published by the LDS Church, p. 674.

Deseret News 1989-90 Church Almanac, p. 188, published by a company owned by LDS Church.

The Journal of Discourses is quoted repeatedly in LDS publications and in LDS conference reports. See for example, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual, Religion 231 and 232, published by the LDS Church Educational System, 1986, p.83. See also Ensign Magazine (official publication of the LDS Church) May 1996, Conference talk by James E. Faust, of the First Presidency, p.7.

It is inconsistent of the Mormons to question the accuracy of the Journal of Discourses while the LDS leaders continue to quote from it. They never follow their quote with a disclaimer about the accuracy of the account. This issue only comes up when someone outside of Mormonism quotes something from their leaders that they are embarrassed about. It is a double standard.

[Rad_J]

I don't agree with your assumptions and your opinions about Mormons in general. Women get temple divorces all the time and so do men.

Are there sexist Mormons? Yes. I have never seen any statistics about the number of temple divorces and whether it is any different for women vs men. Yes, I have heard the rumor too.

Lets see what the Bible says? My wife asked me about this very verse the other day and I couldn't explain it.

Matthew 5:31
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

JESUS said if a man marries a woman who is divorced for a reason other than fornication causeth her to commit adultery. Well, what about the man? Is he committing adultery too? I don't know the answer.

1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

Eve partook of the fruit first but it is called the fall of Adam, not eve. Mormons don't blame the woman, just the man.

These verses sound very sexist to me. That doesn't justify treating women poorly in any instance. Men and women are equal in God's eyes. If men teach differently or use the Bible to treat women poorly then that is WRONG. Sorry if you were ever mistreated by fellow Mormons. I'll tell you what, my Mom ran our house groing up. In fact, my wife runs our house now, just ask her :) In fact, she usually refers to me as one of her boys or kids.

[Rad_J]

The JofD is not scripture and I am not embarrassed about it. Do I agree with everything in it? No. Do I have to as a "good Mormon"? No. Is there truth in the JofD? Yes. I have also heard them quote Josephus, Strong's concordance, Apocraphal writings, and other historical documents. So what.

I hear people speak in church still today and don't agree with all of their opinions.

[RnMomof7]

Women get temple divorces all the time and so do men.

Because of the doctrine of celestial marriage, it is very difficult for Mormon women to obtain divorces in the church. Women are told that "divorce is usually the result of one or both not living the gospel", and that a woman who wants a divorce is "untrue to the covenants she has made in the house of the Lord" (Laake 176). Legal divorces are no problem to obtain, but they create many problems in the religious life of a Mormon; a church divorce is almost impossible

. After a civil divorce, a woman's temple recommend is rescinded (Laake 193). In other words, she is considered unworthy to enter the temple, until she can prove to the heads of the church that the divorce was not caused by adultery. This is done by describing one's sexual activities very exactly in a series of letters to the male church authorities (Laake 194). Believers must submit to this humiliating rule in order to avoid spending eternity with their ex- husbands, because they must be able to enter the temple to obtain a "cancellation of sealing" (Laake 210). This cancellation is required if a woman wishes to remarry in the temple, for women can be celestially married to only one man at a time. Men are not required to undergo any of this to get their temple recommends back, and they, of course, have no need to cancel the celestial marriage to one woman in order to marry a second (Laake 223).

[restornu]

WRIGLEY YOU FANGS IS SHOWING AGAIN!:)

[Wrigley]

Feeling better?

Was that question too hard to answer? I just quoted you; I would have thought you knew what you were saying when you posted. I guess I thought incorrectly.

[Wrigley]

I hear people speak in church still today and don't agree with all of their opinions.

Do you have the same attitude when Hinckley speaks?

[Elsie]

From a political POV, do you not find it disturbing that the government was able to outlaw a religous practice like that? Does not that offend your conservative principles and undermine freedom of religion? What do you think you would do if the government forced you and your spouse to divorce against both your wills, would you just accept it?

What SHOULD disturb YOU is that Your organization just rolled over and acquiesed to the gov't!!

St. Paul was sure not above going to prison.....

"Shall I obey GOD; or men?"

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Oh ye of little faith!

Even Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son, because he thought that GOD could restore him to life again (Hebrews)