Cordial Discussion (P-Marlowe and pseudogratix) COMMENTS BY OBSERVERS.

[drstevej]

This thread is for COMMENTS on the "Cordial Discussion between P-Marlowe and Pseudogratix."

Please do not clutter the original discussion thread.

[T. P. Pole]

I said:
Can we at least agree that at least one time recorded Biblically, two disciples felt their hearts burn when exposed to truth?

You said:
My point is that this is not a case of burning bosom as proof determining whether something is Scripture.

You quote me, then change the words in your response. I said "when exposed to truth." You said "whether something is Scripture." It makes it hard to have a reasonable discussion when this is being done.

Did you even read my original post? I'll repeat it here just in case you missed it.

"I think everyone keeps getting stuck on the scripture part of the burning bosom. However, LDS feel that the burning bosom is a sign of truth, and not just of the truth of the Book of Mormon.

"After all, the next verse after the famous "Book of Mormon challenge" (the pray about it routine), it says (Nephi 10:5) And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

You said:
The point in the Luke passage is illumination (understanding the meaning of the Scriptures) not authentication/canonicity (determining whether a writing is Scripture). This is a monumental difference.

And I agree. The Luke passage is about illumination. Would you agree that illumination means the same thing as my phrase "exposed to truth" here? If not, I'll stick with illumination, since that is supported by the John 14:26 passage I quoted above.

You said:
LDS have a great Catch 22. They ask someone to sincerely read the BoM and ask God if it is true.

And now you get it right - "ask God if it is true." I would suggest that this "burning in the bosom" would also happen while reading, as well as any other time one is exposed to truth (or illumination).

Did you read my "The Word became Fish" post

I scanned it my first time through this thread. I also just went back are reread it. I found humor in it. I also saw the straw man.

[T. P. Pole]

Is your thinking on this verse based on the concept that these two disciples had a physical sensation within their physical chests? If so, you should consider that the word "heart" is used as an idiomatic expression--a figure of speech, in the Bible.

No. We agree that it is symbolic, and not a physical "heart burn." I would tend to say that it is a feeling of spirit talking to spirit. It is what I would feel if the Holy Spirit touched my spirit.

There are over 500 uses of the word "heart" in the Holy Bible. I am unable to find ANY which refer to the physical heart, or chest, or bosom.

I suspect that Ex 28:30 does the trick, at least the first use of heart seems to be in reference to the location on Aaron's body. The second is symbolic. 2 Kgs. 9: 24 also speaks directly of a physical heart (And Jehu drew a bow with his full strength, and smote Jehoram between his arms, and the arrow went out at his heart, and he sunk down in his chariot.) But I know that is not what you are saying here.

However, I think we can better describe what we feel by looking at Deut 29:4 "Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day."

This is Moses talking to the Israelites. He is telling them how they have not understood the Lord's works upon them "until this day." Note the use of "an heart to perceive." This is the heart we LDS are referring to when we talk of a heart burning.

I can find only one reference to this concept, in the LDS distinctive scriptures:

D&C 9: 8

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must cask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

It looks, to me, that this passage (all of D&C 9) is a personal prophecy to Oliver Cowdery, not to the LDS in general.

Indeed, it is a personal prophecy to Oliver Cowdery. And it does frustrate me when LDS use it to describe a method for prayer, without understanding where it comes from. However, like most things in the scriptures, we can relate the concept to ourselves. After all, most things in the Bible are directed to a person or a group, but we are all ok with relating them to us.

Is there an online location where someone could learn more about this concept, so we could discuss the reality of it, instead of our (non-LDS) possible minconceptions of it?

Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. The Holy Ghost from the Mormons.org website covers what the LDS church teaches about this. From this page, follow the "learn more" topics to get the whole story. I would suggest "How can the Holy Ghost help me?" then "The gift of the Holy Ghost," then "Testifier," then How do I recognize the Holy Ghost?", but looking around could be fun, too.

Yes, these are small bites, but they do tell what we believe.

As for other sites, I'm sure there are many out there, and many that go in depth. For example, you could go to www.LDS.org, then pick Gospel Library, then pick Church Publications - HTML, then on the quick search bar, enter "burning" and "bosom" and select Ensign in the "Search in ..." bar. But I suspect that that would be more work than many would like to do.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

[T. P. Pole]

David Copperfield And the other illusionists call this tactic 'misdirection'.

We Protestants have LONG ago given up arguing minor points interpretation, like you LDS have tried to steer us into, as well......

Let's just stick to the topic at hand first.

Actually, I was trying to use it as an example of "traditions" and using Bible verses to support them. I wasn't trying to steer the discussion to a rapture topic (although I'll admit that this topic fascinates me). I was pointing out that hair-splitting seems to be allowed in one direction, but not the other.

I'll try to restate my thought.

Can you accept that the Luke verse supports the idea of some kind of feeling describe as a heart burning when experiencing truth (or illumination) with as much strength as 1 Thes supports rapture, regardless of your interpretation of its minor points? That there is at least some support for the idea? We can work through the "minor points" later, if you can see that the verse does talk about it.

[drstevej]

I did read your post. I see a difference between "exposed to truth" and "illumination." The former may indicate that in the presence of truth one's bosom glows (like a geiger counter's reaction to the presence of radiation). The later, illumination, says that understanding the biblical passage produces a glowing bosom. They saw that these prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus!

***LDS feel that the burning bosom is a sign of truth***

Same problem here. The burning bosom (BB) is a geiger counter for LDS whereas for me it is a response to truth explained. The Holy Spirit helps us understand Scripture. This is analogous to the disciples' experience.

These are two different concepts. I embrace the Holy Spirit as the one who illumines our understanding of Scripture. This is not subjective because He explains the passage to us in rational terms that we can explain to others. The disciples could have repeated what they learned from the Scriptures as their bosom burned.

Mormons want us to accept their glow as testimony that the BoM IS truth, even when we point to places where the BoM contradicts Scripture (e.g. their changing doctrine of God -- see former thread).

LDS: "If it starts to glow, you'll know it's so."

vs.

Me: "He helps us know, and it warms us so."

[DoorGunner]

Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. The Holy Ghost from the Mormons.org website covers what the LDS church teaches about this.

Thanks. I will look into this site when I am able.

DG

[restornu]

Steve you are forgetting that before I knew any of the Burning of the bosom etc. I received a witness of the Holy Spirit that Booke of Mormon was true there were no missionaries in my life at the time, to subjest it to me! It was a feeling of Joy that ran through my whole being and I needed to know more about the Church!

Think about it I was standing over the wastepaper basket going to throw it out! Did not want the book! It did not make sence at the time what is this 1800's, and than unreconizes name in that Book etc. I was really aggravated with that dumb book!

But when I prayed over BOM I can't deny what happen! I have had the feeling of the present of the Holy Spirit in my life as I grew up, but this was the most powerful sweetest Joy I ever received! And when I was baptized, the Holy Spirit also lingered for serveral days!

There were times I have received a warm feeling, sometimes a chill from the Holy Ghost when I prayed to the Lord as a child growing up!

You may want to lash out at this because you have never had felt this witness! So Therefore no one else can!

Moro. 10:
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

[Wrigley]

Rest, didn't you say before that you needed the edlers to verify that what you felt was true? I think you are being misleading with this post.

[drstevej]

I can not challenge your feelings, you had them. But I have heard many a New Ager validate their beliefs by their feeling that God has shown them the truth too.

No matter what your feelings, Mormonism's strange doctrines stand condemned by the Bible (Acts 17:11).

You would have been wise to throw the BoM into the garbage with the other occult books since it too is a product of divination.

[T. P. Pole]

Let me try again.

The passage in Luke shows us that in at least one case, a feeling of a "heart burn" (or a burning bosom) accompanies an experience of realization that prophecy has been fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ. Is that acceptable?

LDS would expand that (using the references in John) to a realization of all truth, including the BoM, as well as other things, including non-religious truth, such as answers to prayers. You seem to be stuck on the BoM part of this, but we feel it deals with all truth.

Did I state the first to your satisfaction? Can you accept that we believe the second, without being forced to believe it yourself? Can you also accept that we are using Bible verses to support our belief, even if you disagree with the conclusion?

[restornu]

What you fail to realize is that if I had temporal issues, it has nothing to do with what the HS wintness to!

I really thought you were more spiritualy mature than this!

That is why I had to know more about the church. Here there was a reference to some history in the 1800's and old religious names I never heard of! I needed to understand how this all fit togather! When it was explained to me than I was able to read the Book.

I saw and heard I could feel the HS testifing of those words. Many times my whole being was quicken to the words and it was at long last a hunger feed! I investigated the church for serval mos. before I joined

Some people know things academically and still not are converted!

Wrigley are you not the KING of TRYIMG to faultfinding? You are akin to doubting Thomas:)Some can't believe unless they can touch it!

When you read the scriptures is it not what you see on the page is how you believe?

Do you allow God to speak to you when you read the scriptures?

Could you Idenify the Voice of God?

[restornu]

Thank you for being courteous!

The Point I was making was even when I was little and as I grew into adulthood There were many times I could feel the presents of the Holy Sprit even before I knew the BOM!

Now the Holy Spirit was the same as I grew up with and it was the same Spirit that testified to the BOM!

[drstevej]

***The passage in Luke shows us that in at least one case, a feeling of a "heart burn" (or a burning bosom) accompanies an experience of realization that prophecy has been fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ. Is that acceptable? ***

Yep.

***LDS would expand that (using the references in John) to a realization of all truth, including the BoM, as well as other things, including non-religious truth, such as answers to prayers. You seem to be stuck on the BoM part of this, but we feel it deals with all truth.***

But LDS place the BoM, PGP, D&C in principle on a par with Scripture and in practice ahead of the Bible. This is a whole different matter than the answer to prayers or whether 2+2=4. At the same time they say the Bible is the Word of God as far as the KJV is translated accurately. Then they argue that since we don't have the original manuscripts we can not know if any of it is translated accurately. See, TPP, I find in reality anything in the Bible can be swept aside by LDS folk yet the BoM and PGP & D&C are guaranteed by Joe & Brigham's prophetic office. This is not a biblical religion in reality. It only appears to be such to the LDS believer and the naive.

***Did I state the first to your satisfaction? [Yep.] Can you accept that we believe the second, without being forced to believe it yourself? [Yep.] Can you also accept that we are using Bible verses to support our belief, even if you disagree with the conclusion? [Nope, see above. You are misusing the Bible and abusing the Bible itself.]

[Elsie]

This comment thread has taken on a life of it's OWN!

We're not 'commenting'!

What the REAL thread doing right now (and what is it's URL?)

[drstevej]

***Now the Holy Spirit was the same as I grew up with and it was the same Spirit that testified to the BOM!***

Why do you conclude that either your childhood perceptions or current preceptions that this was/is the Holy Spirit are accurate.

2 Cor. 11:13 - For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

[Wrigley]

Wrigley are you not the KING of TRYIMG to faultfinding? You are akin to doubting Thomas:)Some can't believe unless they can touch it!

In regards to the Mormon belief, I have a lot to doubt.

[Wrigley]

Some people know things academically and still not are converted!

I don't disagree with you here

But also remember, those who have a burnin' bosum are converted to a false belief system.

[restornu]

We will always be at an impasse but thank you for keepping it polite. Now the Lord's Spirit is able to calm the waters:)

[Elsie]

 THIS sounds kinda familiar!!

---

---

The Raëlians are UFO-cult members who follow Claude Vorilhon, a Frenchman and former motor sport journalist and race-car driver who calls himself Raël. He claims that on December 13, 1973, he was in a volcano near Clermont-Ferrand, France, when he saw a UFO "7 meters in diameter made of a very shiny silver metal and moving in a total silence." He says a radiant being emerged and entrusted him with a message revealing the true origin of mankind. They told him that henceforth he would be known as Raël, which means "messenger."

His followers consider him to be "the prophet of the third millennium." Like all good religious leaders, Raël expects his followers to support him. A 10% tithe is the norm. 

He explains his mission in his book, The True Face of God. According to Taras Grescoe of Salon.com, Vorilhon claims that

he was taken to the planet of the Elohim in a flying saucer in 1975, where he was introduced to noted earthlings such as Jesus, Buddha, Joseph Smith and Confucius. The Elohim, small human-shaped beings with pale green skin and almond eyes, were apparently the original inspiration for the Judeo-Christian God. They informed Vorilhon that he was the final prophet -- sent to relay a message of peace and sensual meditation to humankind under his new name of Raël -- before the Elohim would return to Jerusalem in 2025.

Raël claims that the Elohim have taught him that the human race was created from the DNA of aliens some 25,000 years ago. (In fact, all life on earth was created in alien laboratories.) Among other things, Raël has also learned that cloning is the way to immortality and there is no God or soul. According to Raël, our alien creators want us to be beautiful and sexy and enjoy a sensuous life, free from the restrictions of traditional Judeo-Christian morality.

 

More---> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/814316/posts?page=10#10

[lockeliberty]

Among other things, Raël has also learned that cloning is the way to immortality and there is no God or soul.

HEY, your right that does sound familar. :?O

[drstevej]

***he was taken to the planet of the Elohim in a flying saucer in 1975, where he was introduced to noted earthlings such as Jesus, Buddha, Joseph Smith and Confucius. ***

Rest, read Elsie's post. This guy Claude Vorilhon has met Joseph Smith! May be a new porphet & final prophet comin'! Is the old torso aflame yet? You always knew there was more of God's Word out there, an lookie, Raël shows up.

:<O