Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[Polycarp]

This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:

Current status of Mary:

Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status. 

The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:

	1. Mary is the Mother of God.
	2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.

Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19^th and 20^th centuries:

	3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
	4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1

In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:

In ancient times:

	St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
	St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
	St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1

1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. ₁

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. ₁

Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part: 

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." ₄

1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." ₁

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." ₁

Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.

Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:

Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." ₃ Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

	Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
	Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
	Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. _5,6

[Desdemona]

Fine...but I've never paid Luther any heed and I'm not about to now.

[RnMomof7]

The Immaculate Conception refers to the fact that through a singular Grace given by God, Mary was preserved from all stain of Original sin at the first moment of her existence at her conception in the womb of her mother, St. Anne.

Could you explain the following to me?

You believe that Mary had to be sinless because she was to have a sinless Son of God

Did Anne need to be sinless to have a sinless daughter that would be sinless? Then did Mary's grandmother need to be sinless so her sinless daughter could have a sinless daugther that would have a sinless Son of God?

If God in a moment of Grace could cause Mary, who had a sinful mother AND a HUMAN sinful Father to be born sinless was he UNABLE to have His sinless Son born to a woman that bore the original sin of man?

[drstevej]

***Blessed in the dictionary means Holy, held in Veneration, Revered.***

Which greek/Hebrew lexicon are you using?

Greek (makarios):
Louw-Nida > blessed, happy
UBS > blessed, fortunate, happy
Anlex > of persons characterised by transcendant happiness or religious joy, blessed.

Hebrew (asheri):
BDB > blessed, fortunate

Using an English dictionary to determine the meaning of greek or hebrew words can be misleading, and this is a case in point.

The hebrew and greek words used in the OT and NT do not mean holy, venerated or revered.

[drstevej]

Gotta run for now.

[RnMomof7]

I am looking for a clear distinction between adoration (which come from the word adore)..and worship...

I would say that Catholics do "pray" to Mary instead of directly to Jesus.IMHO....

pray   Pronunciation Key  (pr)
v. prayed, pray·ing, prays
v. intr.
1. ***To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.***
2. **To make a fervent request or entreaty.**

v. tr.
1. To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
2.** To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty**: Pray be careful.
3. **To make a devout or earnest request for***: I pray your permission to speak.
4. To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.

[xzins]

The issue isn't being discussed. The issue is since Jesus was supposed to be fully human and fully divine, how much did Jesus love His Mom, does He still consider her His Mom, and to what lengths would He go for her even after His glorification.

We Protestants who don't get that, don't understand the issue.

[Woodkirk]

Please note , Smeds, that Mary did not say that "all gererations shall call me the Queen of Heaven, the Mother of God, the Co-Redemptrix, or that whole refrain of appellations that your magisterium has come up with".

The word "blessed" means "happy, fortunate, blissful". It is said of a lot of people in the NT, including the poor, the meek, the hungry, the mournful, the merciful, the persecuted -- but most notably: "those that hear the word of God and do it". Mary was blessed because she heard the word of God and did it, just as Jesus said. Her last words recorded in the NT are at the wedding feast at Cana: "What he [Jesus] says unto you, do it".

Did Jesus ever tell anybody to worship Mary, the assign appellations to her, to sing songs to her, pray to her, and make her into a goddess, and put her on his Father's throne in heaven?

Why do Catholics do what they were not told to do and yet not do what Mary did and told others to do?

[RnMomof7]

Used to pray that litney at church on a regular basis Steve..

There is one mediator between God and man and that mediator is Christ Jesus

[Matchett-PI]

"But Jesus said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the world of God, and observe it.” Luke 11:27, 28

"Doesn't Jesus here have an opportunity to support adoration of Mary, but chooses to refute the idea instead?"

Yes, he does. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible shows that the word he used was menounge (prounounced men-oon-geh). #3304. It means, "rather". The sense is, "no, but" / "yea doubtless".

The primary particle "men" #3303 means "in fact" and is usually followed by a contrasted clause.

The translation that gives the sense that Jesus is contrasting what the woman said about Mary with what is in fact, the Truth, is correct. To wit:

"But Jesus said, 'no, but in fact, rather than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God, and observe it.'

[Desdemona]

...that Mary did not say that "all gererations shall call me the Queen of Heaven, the Mother of God, the Co-Redemptrix, or that whole refrain of appellations that your magisterium has come up with".

She is the Mother of God, if you accept the Trinity.

Co-redemptrix is being argued. Hence the title of this thread.

IF you have a problem with Queen of Heaven, how about King Mother, who would be a queen.

And that is only one chunck of the Litany of Mary....

[Desdemona]

Did Jesus ever tell anybody to worship Mary, the assign appellations to her, to sing songs to her, pray to her, and make her into a goddess, and put her on his Father's throne in heaven?

No, and, for the majority of this neither has the church.

Worship - no, she is honored and venerated. Not worshipped.

assign appelations - are you referring to the Litany? Must be. These are based on a lot of stuff. Lightning hasn't struck yet, so we can't be too far off.

sing songs to her - "On this Day Oh Beautiful Mother" is one of my faves.

make her into a goddess - there is only one God and both Mary and her son, Jesus, refer to Him as Father.

put her on his Father's throne - Jesus isn't even on his Father's throne. Why would she be there?

[RnMomof7]

On the contrary? What translation did you get that out of? King James

Luk 11:27   And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

     Luk 11:28   But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Douay_Rheims

Luke 27 And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck.

28 But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.

[theAmbassador]

Living a Christian life means living as Christ would and following his guidelines for living. That is what we are taught. Plain and simple.

So, how many priests have you called the spawn of Satan? (John 8:44)

And, how is Othello?

[RnMomof7]

Ummm...my translation says "...hear the Word of God and keep it."



No one can keep the word of God perfectly that is why we need to be covered with the righteousness of the only one that did...That my friend is why we need a Savior

[RnMomof7]

At the age Mary's mother was when she was conceived, it would have taken some help - and fertility clinics sisn't exist then.


So was Issac born sinless?

[Desdemona]

So, how many priests have you called the spawn of Satan?

Other than the Archbishop of Los Angeles? He is a spawn of Satan.

And, how is Othello?

Fine, I guess. He's out of town right now playing merchant.

[Matchett-PI]

"Our lives are centered around Christ"

How can you be sure which one that is? Scripture says that there are many false Christs.

Is the one you center your life around the one who meant what he said when he used the contrastive word, "rather" when he said this?:

"But Jesus said, “On the contrary, (rather) blessed are those who hear the world of God, and observe it.” Luke 11:27, 28

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible shows that the contrastive word Jesus used was menounge (prounounced men-oon-geh). #3304. It means, "rather". The sense is, "no, but" / "yea doubtless".

The primary particle "men" #3303 means "in fact" and is usually followed by a contrasted clause.

The translation that gives the sense that Jesus is contrasting what the woman said about Mary with what is in fact, the Truth, is correct. To wit:

"But Jesus said, 'no, but in fact, rather than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God, and observe it.'

[RnMomof7]

What does it mean in Greek? It does not mean sinless:>)


2127 eulogeo {yoo-log-eh'-o}

from a compound of 2095 and 3056; TDNT - 2:754,275; v

AV - bless 43, praise 1; 44

1) to praise, celebrate with praises
2) to invoke blessings
3) to consecrate a thing with solemn prayers
3a) to ask God's blessing on a thing
3b) pray God to bless it to one's use
3c) pronounce a consecratory blessing on
4) of God
4a) to cause to prosper, to make happy, to bestow blessings on
4b) favoured of God, blessed

[RnMomof7]

**Have any passages where Jesus dishonors his mother? She was his biggest supporter.**

She thought he was insane at one point
 
  Mar 3:31   There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.


  
  Mar 3:32   And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

And Jesus responded  


 
  Mar 3:33   And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
  
  Mar 3:34   And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
  
  Mar 3:35   For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.