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To: TotusTuus; sharktrager; Gophack; Jerry_M; CCWoody; the_doc; Jean Chauvin; Wrigley; JesseShurun; ...
The Immaculate Conception refers to the fact that through a singular Grace given by God, Mary was preserved from all stain of Original sin at the first moment of her existence at her conception in the womb of her mother, St. Anne.

Could you explain the following to me?

You believe that Mary had to be sinless because she was to have a sinless Son of God

Did Anne need to be sinless to have a sinless daughter that would be sinless? Then did Mary's grandmother need to be sinless so her sinless daughter could have a sinless daugther that would have a sinless Son of God?

If God in a moment of Grace could cause Mary, who had a sinful mother AND a HUMAN sinful Father to be born sinless was he UNABLE to have His sinless Son born to a woman that bore the original sin of man?

123 posted on 10/08/2002 7:28:35 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Did Anne need to be sinless to have a sinless daughter that would be sinless?

You're 100% right RnMom--that is a problem and it's why the Church didn't say it was logically imperative that Mary had to be sinless for Christ to be sinless. It said instead "it is fitting" that Mary be sinless. It was not a logical necessity, but it was wholly appropriate that God grant it. As the ark that held the stone tables of the Old Law was pure and inviolable, so all the more would the ark that carried within her the Word would be pure and inviolable as well.

157 posted on 10/08/2002 9:31:26 AM PDT by Claud
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To: RnMomof7
This comes from a false understanding on their part of Jesus' conception. If I may put it in medical terms, Mary acted effectively as a surrogate mother for a Second Adam. As Adam was not a product of procreation, neither was Jesus. The notion of "suspending" the effects of Original Sin is ludicrous and makes a mockery of the notion of a just God. If God can suspend original sin in one person, why not all, and why did His Son have to die for it? Mary bore Jesus in the sense that Jesus grew in her womb, she went through labor and gave birth to Him, and raised and nurtured Him.

So when the question comes of how Jesus was able to be fully human without succumbing to the curse of Original Sin, there are two options here presented: that Christ was essentially placed in Mary's womb as a fully fertilized egg to which Mary contributed no genetic material, or God chose to bend His own rules and "suspend" the curse He placed upon the human race (or rather that the race brought upon itself).

Greek and Roman mythology tell of Gods coming down and having sex with humans, and essentially that's what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception puts forth. I have every respect for Mary as a saint and a good example of submission to the will of God. It's the Roman Marian doctrines to which I am hostile.

165 posted on 10/08/2002 9:49:47 AM PDT by Frumanchu
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To: RnMomof7
We do not know why God does everything that He does, we simply know that everything He does is good.

Regarding the Immaculate Conception, Jesus took 100% of his humanity from his mother. It would seem only fitting that Mary would be sinless to pass on her genetic code to her son.

In addition, I believe we are in agreement that Mary is the second Eve (as forementioned in Genesis) and Eve was created sinless. It is logical that Mary was also created sinless.

To me, Immaculate Conception is not a difficult concept considering that God chose Mary to carry His humanity, Jesus Christ, who was fully God AND fully Man. And Mary, of her free will, said YES to God (which, He of course knew she was going to do).

God bless!

196 posted on 10/08/2002 10:58:45 AM PDT by Gophack
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