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. Charles Haddon Spurgeon's VIEW OF THE |
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MILLENNIUM |
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Annotated Summary by |
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MARK A. MCNEIL |
Posted on 09/12/2002 7:19:20 AM PDT by xzins
CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?
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. Charles Haddon Spurgeon's VIEW OF THE |
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MILLENNIUM |
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Annotated Summary by |
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MARK A. MCNEIL |
"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."
[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]
INTRODUCTION
There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology — regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.
It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.
PREMILLENNIALISM
The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.
Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.
AMILLENNIALISM
The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.
This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening. It is, to them, a Present Reality.
POSTMILLENNIALISM
The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.
This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.
Spurgeon's VIEW 
With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.
"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]
Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* — especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.
*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial" — yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!
Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...
"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]
"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]
Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming. Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.
"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]
[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner — "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."
In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.
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"Our Hope is the Personal PRE-MILLENNIAL RETURN of the Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."
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— August 1891, age 58 |
Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given — see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.
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We feel safe in concluding, then, |
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that of the three views we began with, |
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Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a |
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Literal Return of Jesus Christ |
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BEFORE |
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a Literal Millennium on the Earth. |
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——————————————————————————— |
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Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student |
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Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement |
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Great was the COMPANY of those that PUBLISHED it." Please, Copy this article, pass it on, and mail to others. |
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NOTES OF INTEREST Watching and Waiting Magazine |
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— Write and Request the Complete Article |
From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.
Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below —
Spurgeon (age 43) — There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...
Spurgeon (age 49) — Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.
Spurgeon (age 50) — When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be — we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation — for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God — and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.
Spurgeon (age 52) — His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.
Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel 37:1-10] — Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say — "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.
The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.
The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us — "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.
We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.
Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb — the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] — (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests — distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day — and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel — however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold — I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit — but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called — Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now — "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He — that same Jesus — who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.
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"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]
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Revelation 20 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them,and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years; 5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
The wording is awkeward xzings..but it still can be two groups..Those that receive the judgement the the and
T, I agree that it CAN be. I don't agree that it MUST be or even that it's the BEST translation.
My only point is that when we make an interpretive choice that isn't a CLEAR FACT, that we remember that we've added an assumption on the way to whatever conclusion we end up with.
It's not wrong to make assumptions. Some are stronger than others in terms of supporting evidence, circumstantial evidence, etc. but they are still assumptions.
RnMomof7 wrote:From Youngs literal translation Revelation 20 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them,and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years; 5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
The wording is awkeward xzings..but it still can be two groups..Those that receive the judgement the the and
Revelation 20 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them,
Who are the one's sitting on the thrones RnMomof7?
That is the issue isn't it..it MIGHT be that it is living Saints and dead saints..or Dead Saints and marytrs, or one groupd described in two ways...(I now tend to think it is two groups...I am a Revelation mess:>)
One of the interesting insites I got from reading this over and over last night is the meaning of Revelation 20 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them,
I have always read that that they were given the right to judge...ahhh haaaaa not so the judgement was made and given to them...now I ask was it their own judgement or a judgement they were to publish..any thouights
For another thing--and this is a half-joking but still half-serious complaint against Warren's reading--the literal reading for the beheading idea would automatically raise questions about the status of folks who were literally martyred but martyred by means other than death under the headsman's axe. Are they left out because they weren't allowed to choose the mode of their execution?
I have been doing alot of reading today..including some of John Mac Arthurs study aids..He says the word for behead was commonly used to refer to all means of death of martyrs..(I looked and can not find confirmation of that anywhere)
On a simple reading of it , it seems to indicate POSSIBLY two groups the beheaded seems to be the one group where the writer is referring to the martyrs..
As I read Revelation 20, the exercise of deciphering its meaning is actually an aid to believers who need to have "the eyes of their understanding enlightened" (Ephesians 1:18) to grasp the STAGGERING significance of what Paul was saying is true for ALL believers RIGHT NOW. Paul is telling us that we are all resurrected because we all died in Christ in a work of definite atonement (not a strictly nebulous thing!) and an associated personal conversion. Thus, our experiential participation in Christ's crucifixion and burial and resurrection thoroughly explains Revelation 20's idea of our "first resurrection." (We are still awaiting the second resurrection, of course--i.e., the material one.)
I agree that as we have died with Christ we have also risen with Him (thus the symbolism of baptism). Now doc I have never considered this "the first resurrection". I have considered this a spiritual resurrection that was a mirror of the physical resurrection to follow...Point for the amil side..one can not physically be resurrected twice..A reading of Rev 20:4:5&6 Seems to seperate a spiritual resurrection (of those seated on the thrones) and a physical resurrection after the Thousand years
I think verse 6 is very clear on this and reflects that the second death has no power over those raised in the first resurrection...Which I guess is dying and raising with Christ.
If the Lord tarries, our physical deaths will eventually eliminate the residual unbelief which stems from the fact that we are still dragging around a body of death in all of its ugly carnality. That transition event will be an important change, to be sure, and theologians have coined the term "intermediate state" to talk about it as the transition from the temporal world to eternity; but the amill can make an interesting argument to the effect that the believer is already in the first phase of the intermediate state! In fact, the Spirit Who has merged Himself with the saved sinner's soul and brought that sinner into the invisible Kingdom of heaven is the knowable foretaste of heaven itself.
A couple things here...first for those not familiar with that scripture on this body of death I will post the scripture
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I have been told that Paul was drawing a very real picture here...one of the 'Punishments' that the Romans used was to tie a corpse to a criminal and make him carry it around with him the weight and the diseases associated with the corpse eventually killed the criminal
This is a stirring thought...
How do they consider this an "intermediate state" ?...that sounds like "soul sleep" or purgatory
I believe scripture speaks of an immediate transition to the presence of God..and actually I think that IS the picture of Rev 20...the souls sans bodies are in the presence of God having been judged (receiving judgement?)
Howdy RnMomof7
I hope this helps some, and I'm also apologizing in advance for it being so long.
And everyone is free to believe what they want, but since I was a "religious" virgin and this is what The Holy Spirit showed me...it's what I believe.
"The Church's" purpose right now is witnessing to the lost, but then we'll be given another job. Maybe think of it as a job promotion.
Anyways in explaining my view RnMomof7....after we're "caught up" (Raptured) Gone...out of here...we get our brand new resurrected "Flesh & Bone" body just like Jesus has, before the antichrist makes his appearance and before the 7 years of tribulation starts.
You asked for the 1...2...3..steps the other day.
Here's mine:
#1. The Rapture...
1 Cor 15:50 I tell you this, my brothers: an earthly body made of flesh and blood cannot get into God's Kingdom. These perishable bodies of ours are not the right kind to live forever.
1 Cor 15:51 But I am telling you this strange and wonderful secret: we shall not all die, but we shall all be given new bodies!
1 Cor 15:52 It will all happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For there will be a trumpet blast from the sky, and all the Christians who have died will suddenly become alive, with new bodies that will never, never die; and then we who are still alive shall suddenly have new bodies too.
1 Cor 15:53 For our earthly bodies, the ones we have now that can die, must be transformed into heavenly bodies that cannot perish but will live forever.
1 Th 4:13 And now, dear brothers, I want you to know what happens to a Christian when he dies so that when it happens, you will not be full of sorrow, as those are who have no hope.
1 Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and then came back to life again, we can also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him all the Christians who have died.
1 Th 4:15 I can tell you this directly from the Lord: that we who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a mighty shout and with the soul-stirring cry of the archangel and the great trumpet-call of God. And the believers who are dead will be the first to rise to meet the Lord.
1 Th 4:17 Then we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever.
1 Th 4:18 So comfort and encourage each other with this news.
#2. The antichrist makes his appearence...
Dan 9:26 "After this period of 434 years, the Anointed One will be killed, his kingdom still unrealized. . . and a king will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. They will be overwhelmed as with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.
#3. The 7 year tribulation period starts (the first 3 1/2 years are fairly peaceful...he lets the Jewish folks rebuild their temple & start the daily sacrifices...
Dan 9:27 This king (the antichrist) will make a seven-year treaty with the people, but after half that time, he will break his pledge and stop the Jews from all their sacrifices and their offerings; then, as a climax to all his terrible deeds, the Enemy shall utterly defile the sanctuary of God. But in God's time and plan, his judgment will be poured out upon this Evil One."
This is from a news article...so you can see how close we are:
NEWS BRIEF: "Laying and Anointing A Cornerstone For The Third Temple: Feast of Tabernacles, Monday, 16th October, 2000, 0900 AM", email announcement from Temple Mount Faithful, October 11, 2000. [NOTE: Confirmed by a Christian pastor in Jerusalem, October 12, 2000]
"You are invited to march with The Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement to the Temple Mount and to participate in the ceremony of the anointing of the cornerstone for the Third Temple. We shall march from the Temple Mount to the City of King David where the ceremony of the anointing will take place. Then we shall march to the Pool of Siloam for the ceremony of the Pouring of the Water will take place as it was done in the Biblical times. The marble corner-stone, untouched by iron, weighing four and a half tonne, will be carried on a flat-bed truck, covered with Israeli flags together with the reconstructed vessels for the Third Temple, a priest in the original garments, and Levites who will play music."
"This historical event will take place on Monday 16th October 2000, the third day of Sukkoth, at 09:00 AM. We shall meet at the Western Wall plaza close to the western (Mugrabi) gate of the Temple Mount. The event has the approval of the Israeli authorities and will be protected by the Israeli security forces."
#4. Jesus second coming...His feet touch the ground and every eye shall see Him!
Zec 14:1 See, a day is coming for the LORD, when the plunder taken from you will be divided in your midst.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses looted and the women raped; half the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
Zec 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward.
Zec 14:5 And you shall flee by the valley of the Lord's mountain, for the valley between the mountains shall reach to Azal; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
#5. 1,000 years of peace...
#6. Present world destroyed by fire...
#7. New Heavens and New Earth.
All the folks left behind after the Rapture will remember what we said but...
Amos 8:11 "The time is surely coming," says the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land--not a famine of bread or water, but of hearing the words of the Lord.
Amos 8:12 Men will wander everywhere from sea to sea, seeking the word of the Lord, searching, running here and going there, but will not find it.
Amos 8:13 Beautiful girls and fine young men alike will grow faint and weary, thirsting for the word of God.
Now you know if "The Church" were still here we'd be telling them. LOL...would we ever be "telling them". :)
Micah 7:1 Woe is me! It is as hard to find an honest man as grapes and figs when harvest days are over. Not a cluster to eat, not a single early fig, however much I long for it!
Micah 7:2 The good men have disappeared from the earth; not one fair-minded man is left. They are all murderers, turning against even their own brothers.
Micah 7:3 They go at their evil deeds with both hands, and how skilled they are in using them! The governor and judge alike demand bribes. The rich man pays them off and tells them whom to ruin. Justice is twisted between them.
Micah 7:4 Even the best of them are prickly as briars; the straightest is more crooked than a hedge of thorns. But your judgment day is coming swiftly now; your time of punishment is almost here; confusion, destruction, and terror will be yours.
Micah 7:5 Don't trust anyone, not your best friend--not even your wife!
Micah 7:6 For the son despises his father; the daughter defies her mother; the bride curses her mother-in-law. Yes, a man's enemies will be found in his own home.
Sorry once again RnMomof7 I didn't mean to make this so long, but I just wanted to show you why I believe the 24 Elders are represented by 12 OT Saints and 12 of "The Church" = 24.
Continuing on:
what He said to the OT Saints about judging.
Exo 18:19 Now listen, and let me give you a word of advice, and God will bless you: Be these people's lawyer--their representative before God--bringing him their questions to decide;
Exo 18:20 you will tell them his decisions, teaching them God's laws, and showing them the principles of godly living.
Exo 18:21 "Find some capable, godly, honest men who hate bribes, and appoint them as judges, one judge for each 1,000 people; he in turn will have ten judges under him, each in charge of a hundred; and under each of them will be two judges, each responsible for the affairs of fifty people; and each of these will have five judges beneath him, each counseling ten persons.
Exo 18:22 Let these men be responsible to serve the people with justice at all times. Anything that is too important or complicated can be brought to you. But the smaller matters they can take care of themselves. That way it will be easier for you because you will share the burden with them.
Deu 17:8 "If a case arises that is too hard for you to decide--for instance, whether someone is guilty of murder when there is insufficient evidence, or whether someone's rights have been violated--you shall take the case to the sanctuary of the Lord your God,
Deu 17:9 to the priests and Levites, and the chief judge on duty at the time will make the decision.
Deu 17:10 His decision is without appeal and is to be followed to the letter.
Deu 17:11 The sentence he imposes is to be fully executed.
Deu 17:12 If the defendant refuses to accept the decision of the priest or judge appointed by God for this purpose, the penalty is death. Such sinners must be purged from Israel.
Deu 17:13 Then everyone will hear about what happened to the man who refused God's verdict, and they will be afraid to defy a court's judgment.
***Now what He said to"The Church" about judging.
1 Cor 6:2 Don't you know that someday we Christians are going to judge and govern the world? So why can't you decide even these little things among yourselves?
1 Cor 6:3 Don't you realize that we Christians will judge and reward the very angels in heaven? So you should be able to decide your problems down here on earth easily enough.
Rom 5:9 And since by his blood he did all this for us as sinners, how much more will he do for us now that he has declared us not guilty? Now he will save us from all of God's wrath to come.
Now lets see what all Christians will be wearing:
2 Tim 4:8 In heaven a crown is waiting for me, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on that great day of his return. And not just to me but to all those whose lives show that they are eagerly looking forward to his coming back again.
So Christians will be wearing crowns...there are other types of crowns too.
Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ who faithfully reveals all truth to us. He was the first to rise from death, to die no more. He is far greater than any king in all the earth. All praise to him who always loves us and who set us free from our sins by pouring out his lifeblood for us.
Rev 1:6 He has gathered us into his Kingdom and made us priests of God his Father. Give to him everlasting glory! He rules forever! Amen!
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
Rev 3:6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
Rev 4:4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Rev 5:7 He stepped forward and took the scroll from the right hand of the one sitting upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And as he took the scroll, the twenty-four Elders fell down before the Lamb, each with a harp and golden vials filled with incense--the prayers of God's people!
Rev 5:9 They were singing him a new song with these words: "You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals and open it; for you were slain, and your blood has bought people from every nation as gifts for God.
Rev 5:10 And you have gathered them into a kingdom and made them priests of our God; they shall reign upon the earth."
Rev 7:13 Then one of the twenty-four Elders asked me, "Do you know who these are, who are clothed in white, and where they come from?"
Rev 7:14 "No, sir," I replied. "Please tell me." "These are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation," he said; "they washed their robes and whitened them by the blood of the Lamb.
Now we'll have a purpose in Heaven too and that will be judging all those who accepted Jesus during the Tribulation Period. Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those who had been given the right to judge.
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus, for proclaiming the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the Creature or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They had come to life again and now they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Where the OT saints were saved by "faith" and "The Church" was saved by "Grace"...the ones who accept Jesus during the Trib had to give up thier heads to be saved. They are the ones standing in front of the thrones...beheaded. They've died a martyrs death.
Rev 20:5 This is the First Resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) ***This is where the Tribulation saints get their "flesh & bone" bodies.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the First Resurrection. For them the Second Death holds no terrors, for they will be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Since we are going to have a body just like Jesus' we’ll be able to do the same thing in ours as He does in His. Time and distance were no barrier to Him.
Acts 1:3 During the forty days after his crucifixion he appeared to the apostles from time to time, actually alive, and proved to them in many ways that it was really he himself they were seeing. And on these occasions he talked to them about the Kingdom of God.
Acts 1:6 And another time when he appeared to them, they asked him, "Lord, are you going to free Israel (from Rome) now and restore us as an independent nation?"
Acts 1:7 "The Father sets those dates," he replied, "and they are not for you to know.
Acts 1:8 But when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, you will receive power to testify about me with great effect, to the people in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth, about my death and resurrection."
Acts 1:9 It was not long afterwards that he rose into the sky and disappeared into a cloud, leaving them staring after him.
Acts 1:10 As they were straining their eyes for another glimpse, suddenly two white-robed men were standing there among them,
Acts 1:11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why are you standing here staring at the sky? Jesus has gone away to heaven, and some day, just as he went, he will return!"
Amen! The Bible says that they are 'wise in their own conceits'(Rom.11:25)
BTW -- Another question: Is the Lamb's Book of Life the same as the Book of Remembrance in Malachi?
As for the Book of rememberance could be ..doesn't the bible say He will never forget us...Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.
Another interesting factoid I learned that night...The scrolls in Revelation are written on BOTH sides..as was the custom EXCEPT with scripture which was written on only one side of the papyrus....so the scrolls are not the scripture that the seals are on...
Eze 2:8 But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee.
Eze 2:9 And when I looked, behold, an hand [was] sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book [was] therein;
Eze 2:10 And he spread it before me; and it [was] written within and without: and [there was] written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.
Connection???
What I consider an intriguing possibility is a 'rapture' similiar to what many evangelicals expect to occur today having taken place sometime between AD 67 & AD 70. Their is an awfully odd silence in the writings of the Apostles,etc. re: Christian history/teaching between roughly AD 70 and AD 150 (it took about another 70 or 80 years for those Christians who were not 'watchful' or 'wise' to gather themselves and sally forth again to the pages of history. It would also be in that era that the idea of a delayed parousia arose. That a 'rapture' occurred concurrently with the parousia and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 would explain the dangling ending to Mark, the abrupt end in Acts (what happens next?), the sudden disappearance in the late 60's (67 to 70) of many of the Apostles.
Apart from that, I would interpret the rapture as simply a reference to the gathering of the saints to be with Christ at death. But, it seems more to refer, again, back to the first century and the translation from the Old Covenant to the Spiritual Realities of the New Covenant.
(ksen, what was the number of your exposition of 2 Peter 3? I will address it myself when I get a chance next week.)
I decided to post this reminder while I was reading post #1169 by philman_36 on the thread "The True Eucharist of Jesus Christ."
In that post, philman_36 said I didn't read all the comments, but the article was great. To me The Eucharist, as "explained" by the RCC, is wrong and I'll laugh at "the joke being played" on some. What a sense of humor Jesus had! I guess some are too ignorant to know they've "been had"!
Puh-leez think about what is going on with the RCs and their doctrine of transubstantiation. The materialistic reading of the "eat and drink" passage in John 6 is a divinely ordained TRAP.
The Lord KNEW that the carnal Romanists would try to read the passage literalistically. That's precisely why He chose the words which John recorded.
The Lord has done this sort of thing more often than today's less-than-thoughtful churchgoers realize. The literal/material reading of the millennium idea in Revelation 20 is another example of the very same kind of TRAP.
The "first resurrection" mentioned in Revelation 20 sounds like a material resurrection to careless readers because it was designed to sound that way. And the idea of Satan being bound was designed to choke some folks.
You must not make the mistake of reading the first resurrection materialistically. The materialistic reading of Revelation 20 is the CARNAL reading. It is the reading which Satan wants you to follow.
I cannot apologize for warning you about this, for telling you that the premill position is that of immature Christians (not to mention quite a few reprobates, I'm afraid). The premillennial position is one of the more deceptive errors in Christendom. Alas, some of the Lord's friends have gotten fooled by what really does amount to a JOKE on the part of the Lord.
So, when I hear an ardent premill arguing against the Romish doctrine of transubstantiation, I laugh with the Lord at the premills. (Of course, as an amill, I definitely get to sit in the heavens with Him while He is laughing.)
The Lord is not laughing at anyone who is sincere. The problem is with the shepherds. If sheep are lost, we need to feed them,which is only done by preaching the Word, not by burdening them with manmade opinions and theories, that only cause dissension.
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