Posted on 07/25/2002 5:31:43 AM PDT by Notwithstanding
A number of disturbing reports are heard lately that some of the Holy Father's former friends are in danger of collapsing in the storms; collapsing into the chaos of selective obedience, into the dangers of private judgment's non sequiturs. Michael Rose is trucking with pope-bashers and marketing his books through them, Robert Sungenis is rashly attacking the Pope on Assisi, Patrick Madrid is selling his books at a notorious pope-trashing website and giving "exclusive" excerpts to that site which also peddles the works of the worst schismatics who publicly call for an official "suspension of obedience" to the "Popes of Vatican II," and who gleefully and absurdly predict that JPII will be deposed for heresies. A group called "Roman Catholic Faithful" is openly publishing the works of these men too. Gerry Matatics, of course, has long shown aggressive solidarity with all these.
At first one hopes there is a misunderstanding. Maybe it's just the fact that a certain small percentage of converts or reverts will inevitably go off the rails for a time; maybe they have not fully overcome their fundamentalist spirit and suspicions toward "Rome," or their instinctive splitting into "remnants," and their personalistic "evangelism" wherein if they feel they are "called" to go on the circuit preaching tour, then they infer they must be "sent" by God, though this is contrary to all Catholic teaching, obedience and humility.
Maybe, though---which God forbid---it is a less innocent motive: simply the desire for money. What many, if not most, of these have in common is something to sell. Books, tapes, magazines, whatever...And maybe they haven't considered how immoral it is from a Catholic point of view to put marketing and personal security above the Truth. Michael Davies has long allowed the most virulent Pope-attackers to publish and sell his books and has led the way in all this. Cottage industries need "markets". Ask Fr. Gruner.
Better to sell no books, or just one book, with the Pope, than a million apart from him. Better to have Our Lord's warning about millstones around ones neck and judgment than to scandalize Christ's innocent ones by leading them into wolves dens to sell ones books or magazines.
Whatever the case, some of these cannot easily plead ignorance, even if others are merely confused. Most know what is what where websites and infamous Integrists are concerned. The goal of the older, more cynical Integrists has long been to pretend that conservatives and integrists are doing the same thing, which is absurd.
It only takes a little poison...
Whatever the case, it appears that some are showing signs of whithering on the Vine. They seem to be moving from complete loyalty to the Holy Father and the teaching Church to a place of shadows where fidelity mixes with persecution.
Invariably, when one points this out and shouts a warning, the more experienced and cynical in the ways of schism and anti-papal doctrinal collapse encourage their neophytes to respond with absurd charges of ultramontanism or to cynically shout down, ad hominem, the ones who try to warn them, as if no dogmatic certainties were at stake: "Who made YOU the measure of the Catholic Faith! Canon law allows criticism!"
Yes, but not this kind of criticism which moves qualitatively from inner personal concern or "dissent" to outright public attack, which even has the temerity to charge the Popes with heresies or rupture with Tradition which is the second prong of revelation itself.
The Holy Father and living magisterium, the teaching Church, is the measure of the Faith, not Catholic persons or groups.
We are living in sad times. When, earlier, I saw my old friends moving toward the cliffs of schism, well beyond constructive criticism, when they refused to hear the warnings, I knew it was time to bail. One's soul was at stake. I saw the logical trajectory of private judgment toward which Integrist presuppositions were leading .
The Holy Father is being persecuted from all sides today in something like apocalyptic storms. And now, some of his former friends are showing signs of deserting that cross and blaming him for the consequences of not heeding his own teachings-----and they do not see how ironic and absurd and tragic that is.
Real traditionalists---such as we are proud to be--- have their wheels on the dogmatic rails. Ask any Neo-modernist and he'll tell you where TCR is on the theological spectrum and they will not hesitate to say we are traditionalists, but with our wheels on the tracks, with Peter, who, together with his bishops, alone has the right to mediate, interpret, and develop Catholic Tradition.
Sometimes a warning must be sounded.
I think that he had full authority to use the funds, so it is a difficult legal case to prove that he did anything wrong. Morally, the concensus is that it was very wrong -- and stupid.
Fine. If you believe this twaddle, check with your "Trad" friends and have them tell you where The Magisterium has ever said that Canon Law has MORE authority than the Pope.
But, before you waste your time, read Vatican One re the SUPREME POWER of the Pope. It is, ahem, DOGMA. Good grief...
My understanding is that he is a Benedictine from a group in Pennsylvania. Don't ask me how an "order" priest can run a Diocese. That is something decided by a higher order than I! LOL
In any case, it is also my understanding that the Benedictines in PA "don't have room for him to come back."
He made himself an apartment in the Seminary here (the now-defunct Minor Seminary) and intends to stay forever, it seems. I think this will be a real burden for the new Archbishop. He'll have the 25 year veteran second guessing him all the way. To save face, and for politeness sake, they'll always try to look like whatever they are doing has the blessing of FORMER Archbishop Weakland -- at least that's how it seems right now. In the mean time FORMER Archbishop Weakland's likeness is cast in bronze in his newly and expensively remodeled Cathedral. Graven images?
I have read more than once that many in the upper reaches of the Curia feel that the USCCB is de facto in schism.I don’t see how we can act based on rumors of an opinion or two by members of the Curia.
If schism is defined as seperation from Rome, can you not see the validity of the arguments of necessity?No. The Pope himself issued the excommunication. If the excommunication were issued by the Bishops who are accused of being schismatic, then it is possible, I suppose, to say it was necessary to Consecrate the Bishops.
But how can you respond to people who won’t obey the Pope, and are therefore in your opinion schismatic, by refusing to obey the Pope yourself, and therefore becoming schismatic as well? Two wrongs don’t make a right, no matter how necessary you think it is.
Look at the posts by freepers who report abuses that clearly invalidate the sacraments, honey bread or pita bread used as "hosts" for example.Go find a better Mass. I don’t know of any jurisdiction where you can’t at least find a Mass using valid matter.
When the priestly formation has degraded to that point, when the teachings of the Church on such essential issues as life itself get changed and massaged, can you truly not see the argument of necessity?No. Schism is not a valid response to schism.
Dominus Vobiscum
patent +AMDG
Read this article above. One need not go to TCRNews.com to substantiate the charge. Here is Hand's title:
When The Pope's Friends Walk Away
Here is the opening paragraph:
A number of disturbing reports are heard lately that some of the Holy Father's former friends are in danger of collapsing in the storms; collapsing into the chaos of selective obedience, into the dangers of private judgment's non sequiturs. Michael Rose is trucking with pope-bashers and marketing his books through them, Robert Sungenis is rashly attacking the Pope on Assisi, Patrick Madrid is selling his books at a notorious pope-trashing website and giving "exclusive" excerpts to that site which also peddles the works of the worst schismatics
For God's sake, read what Hand is saying here.
He just said that Robert Sungenis and Pat Madrid, two of Catholicism's premier apologists, are former friends of the Pope and have walked away from JPII.
He calls web sites and their operators "pope-trashing schismatics."
Sorry, you've hitched your wagon to the wrong star, CG. I stand by what I said. Hand is just as bad as those he rashly judges.
You seem far more certain than I am about the ability of all to find a Mass that not only uses valid matter but valid form and intention.Valid form is very brief, it is simply the words of Consecration, not the whole Canon. Valid matter is pretty easy to tell, and I’ve been to many, many different parishes. Valid intention is to simply do as the Church does, and is again, very unlikely to be missing. You have a fear, but how much evidence supports that fear? How many parishes have you heard of that use invalid matter? To the best of my knowledge, it is very rare. A parish in Massachusetts, one of the more liberal places to be Catholic, took a public relations beating because they refused to use a rice host instead of a wheat host.
If the priestly formation is so awful that a diocesan priest doesn know that pita bread is invalid matter, how well is his intention formed? And the ignorance of the rubrics is, in some areas, just as pervasive.I would be very surprised to arrive up in heaven and find that there were very many priests who did not know the Church teaches that pita bread is invalid matter.
Most of the priests who substitute this other material know the Church’s teachings, they just reject them. Mainly, they reject the belief in the Real Presence, and they substitute this material to make their point. Some of them admit it bluntly. Others claim they don’t know. I’m not sure I find the protests of ignorance credible, those few times they may occur.
patent +AMDG
I think patent is a pure gem. And I am so grateful that he, you, Polycarp, and so many others are here on Free Republic. I am also grateful for Catholic FReepers I only see on occasion like Nubbin -- Nubbin's a gem too.
All of you remind me so often of things about our Catholic faith in Christ that I love so much, and I find my faith renewed and rekindled. I thank you.
Do me a favor and remove me from your ping list. What in the hell do you hope to accomplish with such internicine battles? Did you ever consider the possibility that you are actively chasing people away from the Catholic faith?
And you have some lessons to learn yourself about prudential judgment, IMO.
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