For Whom did Christ die? - Puritan Logic (Calvinism)

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[CCWoody]

FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen

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The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

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[Cvengr]

Both points of view have some respective validity, primarily dependent of the object and subject.

All men have volition as do the angels. Nothing God has done violates that volition. Accordingly, man and angel may choose independently of God.

An assumption that God chooses the elect and they are able to rebel simply acknowledges His just nature to judge rebellion without marginalizing his sovereignty and immutability.

The consequence of independent volition which fails to act in accordance with His will is sin. Evil acts are those independent of God's will and in turn are known in advance to cause suffering. The implicit fall based upon those who rebel is therefore a just sentance.

[irishtenor]

Now THAT'S funny:>)

[Cvengr]

Real Calvinists don't dance!

Yeah, but it doesn't keep our wives from trying to get us to.... ;^) LOL

[Hank Kerchief]

I appreciate your argument for unlimited atonement (although I know the Calvinist response). My question has to do with Isaiah 53 answering Finney and others who deny a penal understanding of the atonement.

The answer is the word "substitute." Christ was the unviversal substitute, and only God Himself could choose Himself as the substitute for absolute just retribution for sin. It is necessary that the the consequences of sin be born by those who commit them, and nothing can undo the sin that has been committed. But it is God who must execute judgment and meet out retribution, and only God who could supply the appropriate substitute for that retribution. This he did, by becoming a man, living a sinless life, and suffering and dying on the Cross, as a condemned criminal. God the Father did not punish God the Son, God the Father allowed God the Son to be condemned and executed by men, as a substitute for all mankind.

The language of Isaiah 53 is highly metaphorical, and I readily admit expressions like, "it pleased the Lord to bruise him," and, "he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows," can be construed as pictures of punishment and payment. But the plain fact is, we know they are metaphors, because the Father did not bruise the son, and we all have griefs and sorrows and sickness. (Now if Jesus had literally borne them for us, we should not have them.)

Everywhere the Bible talks about the forgiveness of God, but to be just, sin cannot just be pardoned, as though there were no consequences for sin. There must be some basis for that pardon. The atonement secured universal pardon for all mankind, and forgiveness is granted to all those who accept that pardon.

There is a condition, however. One cannot remain a rebel and enemy in one's heart and mind and be still eligible for the free gift. The gift is offered to all those who willing throw down the arms of their rebellion, and embrace the forgiveness extended to all those who choose the reconciation offered in Christ.

Finally, if the atonement were based on Christ's suffering and death paying for sin or bearing the exact punishment for the sin of all men, forgiveness would not be required. Debt that has been paid does not need to be forgiven. Since the Bible clearly teaches our sin has been forgiven, the atonement must be the just basis for that forgiveness, not payment for it.

Since you believe the atonement was unlimited, if it were literally the exact bearing of the punishment for all mankind's sin, to send anyone to hell would be extracting the same punishment twice, since Christ would already have born the punishment once.

However, much about the atonement, I beleive, remains a mystery. That Christ's death has secured forgiveness for our sins, and is the only way we can be reconciled with God is certain. The views I have expressed are my own based on Scripture alone. I am not pressing anyone else to accept them. I certainly do not accept the teachings of other men, especailly those of Augustine, by way of Calvin, Wesley, Luther, or anyone else.

Hank

[xzins]

Elsie, please see below for scriptures on prevenient grace and for all else you need to know about dealing with the system of calvinism. The chart of course will not help at all with some folks saracasm or rudeness.

Thought I'd show you the updated, current version of the Wesley-Arminian Chart

Free Choice (Wesley-Arminianism) Compared with Calvinism

FreeChoice Position.	Scripture	Implication	Calvinist Objection	Calvinist Implication
A. - - - The Primary aspect of God’s nature, his primary attribute, is Love.	1 John 4:16 God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Rom 5:8 God commendeth his LOVE toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant…he humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.	All theology must understand the centrality of Love in the nature of God such that "God so loved the world that He gave His ONLY begotten Son, so that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."	G…Calvinists believe that God’s primary motive is the protection of His own GLORY and sovereignty, thus His primary attribute is Power.	All theology must understand the prerogatives and centrality of God’s sovereignty and power..
1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace.	John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined Joshua 24:15 Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord ." Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.	People go to heaven or hell based on their own choices for or against Christ. God foreknew their choice.	U - - Unconditional Election means that God has elected for His own glory, in accordance with His own will and without regard for the merit of those elected, some for salvation and some to be left in their sins.	God chooses whether or not any individual will be saved. He chooses based on his own reasons which he has not revealed.
2. - - Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved.	1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Acts 17:25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.	The opportunity for Salvation is available to everyone. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sin. Everyone is allowed to come to Christ.	L - - Limited Atonement means that Christ died specifically and only for the sins of those who would ever truly believe in Him..	Christ's sacrifice was intended only for those who were chosen ahead of time for salvation. Everyone is not allowed to come to Christ.
3. - - - In accordance with the foreplanning of God, man was created with the ability to resist Divine Grace	Acts 7:50 Has not my hand made all these things?'[1] 51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him-- Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.	In the same way humanity has been endowed with the capacity to say "yes" to God, it has also been endowed with the capacity to resist, to say "no," to God's offer of the gospel.	I - - Irresistible Grace means that the elect are incapable of resisting the Holy Spirit's inward call to repentance and salvation	Those God chose for salvation are unable to say "no" to salvation due to God's overpowering them with his attractiveness. (Neither are the non-chosen able to say "yes." God never attempts to attract them.)

Free Choice (Arminianism) Compared with Calvinism

FreeChoice Position.	Scripture	Implication	Calvinist Objection	Calvinist Implication
4. - - - Pre-regenerate Man is so depraved that foreplanned divine intervention and prevenient divine grace are necessary to bring about faith or any good deed.	John 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it.... . 9The true light that gives light to EVERY man was coming into the world.[2] Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their CONSCIENCES also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)	The Spirit of Christ, based on the pure grace of God, gives enough light to every human, speaks sufficiently to each human heart, despite its inherent sinfulness, such that each person is confronted with a real, complete choice for or against God. .	T - - Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ	Humanity does not have an effective conscience, nor does any man have, before regeneration, any internal capability to receive any good message from God. There is no residue of the image of God remaining in pre-regeneration man.
5. - - - It is not certain from the bible that all who are truly regenerate will necessarily persevere in the faith.	John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.	The Christian does best who obeys Christ's direction, "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming." It is best to have oil in your lamp, as did the wise virgins. Additionally, the Lord who demands holiness of us will out of his love empower us to follow after that holiness without which no one will see God.	P - - Perseverance of the Saints means that all those who are preselected for salvation will certainly be brought to heaven and to glorification and will never be lost	There is no act or unbelief following salvation that can cause one to lose salvation, OR those who act or believe inappropriately must never have been truly saved.

[Elsie]

"I'm a little robot,

Short and stout..........."

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Good chart!

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How can 'Calvinists' believe THIS.......

There is no act or unbelief following salvation that can cause one to lose salvation, OR those who act or believe inappropriately must never have been truly saved.

......in light of THESE?

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NIV 1 Timothy 1:18-20
 18.  Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,
 19.  holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 

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NIV Galatians 5:2-4
 2.  Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
 3.  Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
 4.  You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

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NIV Galatians 5:19-21
 19.  The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
 20.  idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
 21.  and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

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NIV Galatians 6:8
 8.  The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature  will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

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NIV Ephesians 4:22-32
 22.  You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
 23.  to be made new in the attitude of your minds;
 24.  and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
 25.  Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
 26.  "In your anger do not sin" : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
 27.  and do not give the devil a foothold.
 28.  He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
 29.  Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
 30.  And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
 31.  Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.
 32.  Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

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NIV Ephesians 5:1-6
 1.  Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children
 2.  and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
 3.  But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
 4.  Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.

 5.  For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
 6.  Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

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NIV Philippians 3:10-14
 10.  I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
 11.  and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
 12.  Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
 13.  Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
 14.  I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

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NIV Colossians 1:22-23
 22.  But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
 23.  if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

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NIV Colossians 3:1-8
 1.  Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.
 2.  Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
 3.  For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
 4.  When Christ, who is your  life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
 5.  Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
 6.  Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.
 7.  You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 
 8.  But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

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NIV 1 Timothy 4:1

 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

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NIV 1 Timothy 4:16
 16.  Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

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NIV 1 Timothy 6:20-21
 20.  Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
 21.  which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.   Grace be with you.

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NIV 2 Timothy 2:11-13
 11.  Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
 12.  if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
 13.  if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

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NIV 2 Timothy 4:3-4
 3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
 4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

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NIV Titus 1:9-16
 9.  He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
 10.  For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
 11.  They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
 12.  Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons."
 13.  This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith
 14.  and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.
 15.  To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
 16.  They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

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NIV Titus 3:8-11
 8.  This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.
 9.  But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
 10.  Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.
 11.  You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

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NIV Hebrews 2:1-3
 1.  We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
 2.  For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,
 3.  how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

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NIV Hebrews 3:11-14
11.  So I declared on oath in my anger, `They shall never enter my rest.'"
 12.  See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
 13.  But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
 14.  We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

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NIV Hebrews 4:1
 1.  Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

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NIV Hebrews 4:11
 11.  Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

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NIV Hebrews 6:4-6
 4.  It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
 5.  who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
 6.  if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because  to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

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NIV Hebrews 10:26-27
 26.  If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
 27.  but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

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NIV Hebrews 10:39
 39.  But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

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Backsliding?

NIV Hebrews 12:15-17
 15.  See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
 16.  See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
 17.  Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.

[Elsie]

"How far is love, even with many wrong opinions, to be preferred before truth itself without love?

We may die without the knowledge of many truths and yet be carried into Abraham's bosom. But if we die without love, what will knowledge avail? Just as much as it avails the devil and his angels."

John Wesley (1703-1991)
founder of
Methodism

 

"Though we cannot think alike, may we not love alike?

May we not be of one heart, though we are not of one opinion?"

[drstevej]

So true.

[RnMomof7]

Spam alert :>)) If the one that says the most is right I am sorry guys I win!

[drstevej]

Thanks for the reply: Just a couple of thoughts...

[1] Metaphorical language does not set truth aside nor is it to be discounted for understanding doctrine. The intent of these metaphors is to show Christ as the final sacrifice who was punished for our sins.

[2] Holding both the penal view of the atonement and that He died for all [My view - not that of my Calvinist buddies] does not mean the non-elect are wrongly punished in Hell . We are justified by faith based in Christ's payment. Those who do not believe are not justified (declared righteous). Application of the benefits of Christ's death is not incidental to God's pardon. The elect are not pardoned until the point of faith. Prior they are in the kingdom of darkness -- even though the death of Christ has already born their penalty.

[3] I agree there is mystery -- we will never fathom all of the richness of His provision. I would urge us avoid the extremes of either declaring mystery where the Bible has spoken or on the other hand pressing the scriptures by logic to the point of distortion.

I do appreciate your response, HK.

[RnMomof7]

"I'm a little robot,
Short and stout..........."
Good chart!

Too bad about the Robot thing I freely chose God:>) The chart would be interseting IF it was correct...(It is not)

[DouglasKC]

Just in case you guys missed it on the other thread, I would like your interpetation of this verse:

Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,

If in Calvinistic thought only the elect are ever going to come to repentence and the rest are doomed, then how come Paul, who had a direct experience with the Lord God Jesus Christ, tells us in inspired scripture that all men everywhere are being commanded to repent?

[CCWoody]

Well, I should have brought cookies to Bible study last night. Let's see:

1. Everyone specifically rejected the idea that before our conversion we were men of a perverse heart. The church of Christ decon basically said we are good and just need to follow Jesus to be saved.
2. And Titus 3 didn't go over well either. They all concluded that v. 5 is talking about water baptism. You know, you go in without the Holy Spirit and you come out with the Holy Spirit. The idea that it is regeneration being discussed was thrown out. And it was at this point that speaking in tongues came up...
3. I'm not certain the ex-RC will be ever coming back. (Note: I didn't say anything about his comments concerning baptism)
4. At one point, when asked what I was thinking, I replied: "Do you really want to know!"

All in all, I had fun.

[Jerry_M]

Just in case you missed it, here is my answer on the other thread:

"Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent, I would like to get the Calvinist interpetation of this verse."

Calvinist interpretation: God strictly commands all men everywhere to repent.

(It's what I preach! Never mind that the elect will repent and believe, and the rest will continue to wallow in their sin.)

[RnMomof7]

Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,
If in Calvinistic thought only the elect are ever going to come to repentence and the rest are doomed, then how come Paul, who had a direct experience with the Lord God Jesus Christ, tells us in inspired scripture that all men everywhere are being commanded to repent?

As I told you there...ALL men are commanded to repent...but they do not choose to Doug..Men may do exactly as they choose

[drstevej]

Xzins:

Give me your thoughts on how this passage relates to your understanding of prevenient grace. The text says clearly that all men know there is a creator and that this knowledge is made manifest by God, yet they reject it. Should this be added to your chart under prevenient grace (as the passage you include discussing conscience)?

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Romans 1

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.

[RnMomof7]

I do not think you will be teaching next semester...LOL...unless you wife starts to bake

[DouglasKC]

Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent, I would like to get the Calvinist interpetation of this verse."

Jerry_M, rnmomof7: Calvinist interpretation: God strictly commands all men everywhere to repent.
(It's what I preach! Never mind that the elect will repent and believe, and the rest will continue to wallow in their sin.)

God is COMMANDING all men everywhere to repent. Yet most aren't. Doesn't this mean that some men are stronger than God? How can anyone resist a direct command by God?

And if God knows who is going to repent and who isn't, then why is he wasting time commanding every man to repent? Why doesn't he just command the elect to repent?

[drstevej]

CCW: Next time go inductive rather than deductive. And don't forget the cookies!

Remember: A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down, the medicine go down.

[RnMomof7]

God is COMMANDING all men everywhere to repent. Yet most aren't. Doesn't this mean that some men are stronger than God? How can anyone resist a direct command by God?
And if God knows who is going to repent and who isn't, then why is he wasting time commanding every man to repent? Why doesn't he just command the elect to repent?

Doug Listen real close shhhhhhhhhhhh the unregenerate man can not HEAR that command. It is not a matter of strength..that puts repentance in "huaman will" area..and as I proved to you with scripture..repentance is a gift from God..