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To: drstevej; elsie
Elsie, please see below for scriptures on prevenient grace and for all else you need to know about dealing with the system of calvinism. The chart of course will not help at all with some folks saracasm or rudeness.

Thought I'd show you the updated, current version of the Wesley-Arminian Chart

Free Choice (Wesley-Arminianism) Compared with Calvinism
FreeChoice Position. Scripture Implication Calvinist Objection Calvinist Implication
A. - - - The Primary aspect of God’s nature, his primary attribute, is Love.
1 John 4:16 God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Rom 5:8 God commendeth his LOVE toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant…he humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
All theology must understand the centrality of Love in the nature of God such that "God so loved the world that He gave His ONLY begotten Son, so that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." G…Calvinists believe that God’s primary motive is the protection of His own GLORY and sovereignty, thus His primary attribute is Power. All theology must understand the prerogatives and centrality of God’s sovereignty and power..
1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined
Joshua 24:15 Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord ."
Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
People go to heaven or hell based on their own choices for or against Christ. God foreknew their choice. U - - Unconditional Election means that God has elected for His own glory, in accordance with His own will and without regard for the merit of those elected, some for salvation and some to be left in their sins. God chooses whether or not any individual will be saved. He chooses based on his own reasons which he has not revealed.
2. - - Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Acts 17:25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
The opportunity for Salvation is available to everyone. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sin. Everyone is allowed to come to Christ. L - - Limited Atonement means that Christ died specifically and only for the sins of those who would ever truly believe in Him.. Christ's sacrifice was intended only for those who were chosen ahead of time for salvation. Everyone is not allowed to come to Christ.
3. - - - In accordance with the foreplanning of God, man was created with the ability to resist Divine Grace
Acts 7:50 Has not my hand made all these things?'[1] 51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him--
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
In the same way humanity has been endowed with the capacity to say "yes" to God, it has also been endowed with the capacity to resist, to say "no," to God's offer of the gospel. I - - Irresistible Grace means that the elect are incapable of resisting the Holy Spirit's inward call to repentance and salvation Those God chose for salvation are unable to say "no" to salvation due to God's overpowering them with his attractiveness. (Neither are the non-chosen able to say "yes." God never attempts to attract them.)
Free Choice (Arminianism) Compared with Calvinism
FreeChoice Position. Scripture Implication Calvinist Objection Calvinist Implication
4. - - - Pre-regenerate Man is so depraved that foreplanned divine intervention and prevenient divine grace are necessary to bring about faith or any good deed.
John 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it.... . 9The true light that gives light to EVERY man was coming into the world.[2]
Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their CONSCIENCES also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
The Spirit of Christ, based on the pure grace of God, gives enough light to every human, speaks sufficiently to each human heart, despite its inherent sinfulness, such that each person is confronted with a real, complete choice for or against God. . T - - Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ Humanity does not have an effective conscience, nor does any man have, before regeneration, any internal capability to receive any good message from God. There is no residue of the image of God remaining in pre-regeneration man.
5. - - - It is not certain from the bible that all who are truly regenerate will necessarily persevere in the faith.
John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The Christian does best who obeys Christ's direction, "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming." It is best to have oil in your lamp, as did the wise virgins. Additionally, the Lord who demands holiness of us will out of his love empower us to follow after that holiness without which no one will see God. P - - Perseverance of the Saints means that all those who are preselected for salvation will certainly be brought to heaven and to glorification and will never be lost There is no act or unbelief following salvation that can cause one to lose salvation, OR those who act or believe inappropriately must never have been truly saved.

85 posted on 05/08/2002 3:41:01 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
"I'm a little robot,

Short and stout..........."


Good chart!
How can 'Calvinists' believe THIS.......

There is no act or unbelief following salvation that can cause one to lose salvation, OR those who act or believe inappropriately must never have been truly saved.

......in light of THESE?


NIV 1 Timothy 1:18-20
 18.  Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,
 19.  holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith

NIV Galatians 5:2-4
 2.  Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
 3.  Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
 4.  You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

NIV Galatians 5:19-21
 19.  The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
 20.  idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
 21.  and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

NIV Galatians 6:8
 8.  The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature  will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

NIV Ephesians 4:22-32
 22.  You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
 23.  to be made new in the attitude of your minds;
 24.  and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
 25.  Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
 26.  "In your anger do not sin" : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
 27.  and do not give the devil a foothold.
 28.  He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
 29.  Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
 30.  And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
 31.  Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.
 32.  Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

NIV Ephesians 5:1-6
 1.  Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children
 2.  and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
 3.  But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
 4.  Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
 5.  For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
 6.  Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

NIV Philippians 3:10-14
 10.  I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
 11.  and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
 12.  Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
 13.  Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
 14.  I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

NIV Colossians 1:22-23
 22.  But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
 23.  if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

NIV Colossians 3:1-8
 1.  Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.
 2.  Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
 3.  For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
 4.  When Christ, who is your  life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
 5.  Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
 6.  Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.
 7.  You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 
 8.  But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

NIV 1 Timothy 4:1
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

NIV 1 Timothy 4:16
 16.  Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

NIV 1 Timothy 6:20-21
 20.  Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
 21.  which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.   Grace be with you.

NIV 2 Timothy 2:11-13
 11.  Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
 12.  if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
 13.  if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

NIV 2 Timothy 4:3-4
 3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
 4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

NIV Titus 1:9-16
 9.  He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
 10.  For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
 11.  They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
 12.  Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons."
 13.  This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith
 14.  and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.
 15.  To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
 16.  They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

NIV Titus 3:8-11
 8.  This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.
 9.  But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
 10.  Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.
 11.  You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

NIV Hebrews 2:1-3
 1.  We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
 2.  For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,
 3.  how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

NIV Hebrews 3:11-14
11.  So I declared on oath in my anger, `They shall never enter my rest.'"
 12.  See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
 13.  But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
 14.  We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

NIV Hebrews 4:1
 1.  Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

NIV Hebrews 4:11
 11.  Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

NIV Hebrews 6:4-6
 4.  It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
 5.  who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
 6.  if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because  to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

NIV Hebrews 10:26-27
 26.  If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
 27.  but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

NIV Hebrews 10:39
 39.  But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

Backsliding?
NIV Hebrews 12:15-17
 15.  See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
 16.  See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
 17.  Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.

86 posted on 05/08/2002 5:24:07 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: xzins;RnMomof7; Matchett-PI; Jerry_M; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Jean Chauvin; the_doc;elsie
Xzins:

Give me your thoughts on how this passage relates to your understanding of prevenient grace. The text says clearly that all men know there is a creator and that this knowledge is made manifest by God, yet they reject it. Should this be added to your chart under prevenient grace (as the passage you include discussing conscience)?

=====

Romans 1

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.

96 posted on 05/08/2002 6:36:34 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: xzins;;kjam22; The Grammarian ;forthedeclaration;WinstonChurchill;DouglasKC...
The correct Chart:>)))

Comparison of Calvinism and Arminianism

Arminianism

Calvinism

Free-Will or Human Ability
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.
Total Inability or Total Depravity
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.
Conditional Election
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Unconditional Election
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Universal Redemption or General Atonement
Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.
Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement
Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.
The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted
The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.
The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace
In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.
Falling from Grace
Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.
Perseverance of the Saints
All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

The following material, taken from Romans: An Interpretive Outline, by David N. Steele and Curtis Thomas, Baptist ministers in Little Rock, Arkansas, contrasts the Five Points of Calvinism with the Five Points of Arminianism in the clearest and most concise form found by Mr. Loraine Boettner. It is also included as an Appendix in The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, by Mr. Boettner. Each of these books is published by the Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., Phillipsburg, N.J.

118 posted on 05/08/2002 10:14:00 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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