Posted on 05/07/2002 10:20:28 AM PDT by CCWoody
The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:
In which case it may be said:
You answer, "Because of unbelief."
I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"
Jesus has paid for all the sins of a person who will burn forever in the Lake of Fire and make the Propitiation of Christ to have been done in vain.This is TRUE!
Well, I do note that you did say TRUE to the Propitiation of Christ to have been done in vain. But this is entirely FALSE. Christ did not pay for the sins of those whom He already knew would burn forever in the Lake of Fire.
What you are really saying is that the Lamb of God, who was slain before the foundation of the world, who perfectly knew who would repent and believe and who would not, still died for those whom He would trample in His fury and stain His garments with their Blood. That is what you are really saying.
But, to be fair, I will show you that I am capable of refuting every single one of your scripture cites:
2434 hilasmos {hil-as-mos'} found 2 times in the whole Bible!
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1Jo 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided.
What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. Therefore, if you read 1 John 2:2 like this:
And He Himself is the actual covering and remitting for our sins, and not for ours only but also the means whereby sin is covered and remitted for the whole world
I would not have a problem with your reading. I fact, I would say that your statement is extremely Calvinistic in nature.
And if you want to read the verse like this:
And He Himself is the means whereby sin is covered and remitted for our sins, and not for ours only but also the means whereby sin is covered and remitted for the whole world
I would also not have a problem with your reading. In fact, I would say that your statement is extremely Calvinistic in nature.
However, if you want to read the verse like this:
And He Himself is the actual covering and remitting for our sins, and not for ours only but also actual covering and remitting for the whole world
I would wonder how you can claim such a reading and not be a Universalist heretic.
But wait, if the point he was making was the truth, then the method is valid. At least that's the way I've heard it explained before.
xzins, while your point is valid, I would perhaps have used different words. ;-)
The Hebrews writer agrees with us Calvinist; unless you want to contend that people who have been perfected forever are thrown into hell.
(Except for that guy in the back who thinks I don't mean him.)
KJV Matthew 25:41
41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
it was ONLY prepared for a certain group of individuals. How did HUMANS end up going there?
KJV Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
KJV Hebrews 2:1-4
1. Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3. How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4. God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?KJV Hebrews 3:11-15
11. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.KJV Hebrews 4:1-2
1. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.KJV Hebrews 4:11
11. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.KJV Hebrews 6:4-6
4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.KJV Hebrews 10:26-27
26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.KJV Hebrews 10:39
39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.(since you agree, why did he waste his time writing these, if it IS impossible?)
The end justifies the means, heh, CS? Now who's the Nazi?
To make reference to "Dr. Mengele" in ANY of these religious threads is not only the most disgusting thing I've read from any of you, but you demean the real suffering that putrid scum inflicted on millions of innocents. To compare any of us to Mengele, of all people, tells me you are ignorant about the man and history.
Or else you are just ignorant.
Perhaps?
Lighten up! It was a poorly chosen analogy that is all! Xzins was not equating anyone with the Nazi's. I think there might be too much hyper-sensitivity going on here.
Or perhaps you missed the sarcasm. I was parroting the words the Calvinists used in defense of one of your members in a recent exchange with one of the Catholics. xzins provide an analogy, granted it was an ugly one, but the pattern fits.
There are those among your number who believe it is okay to call other Christians "Satanically screwed," because they follow a different path. And yes, for the record, with all their flaws (and mine) I consider Catholics to be my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Perhaps you didn't see the exchange I'm referencing, so we'll overlook your ignorance (as in lack of knowledge) and the most offensive posts were pulled. But my response in this situation was a tongue in cheek paraphrase of your offending "brother's" words.
youre sounding Free Methodist now ;) - EVIL SPIRITS come OUT!
Psssst - this is the part where the handbook says you are supposed to fall to the floor and convulse and babble to validate calvinist stereotypes
We had gotten them after they were fully grown, they did not grow up together.
We had a big lot and there was plenty of room to run, and they just loved to play together. We had an old throw rug that they glommed onto, tugging and pulling from either end. As one would slack up a bit with their tug-of-war, the other would grab just a little bit more. Well, they slowly got closer and closer to each other, and after a few minutes their noses were quite close to each other.
Well, neither would give in, so, shortly, they got so close that one of them chomped the tender nose of the other. That was all it took! And unintentional offense turned into a MASSIVE dog fight!
It's a good thing that there were two humans around to grab a dog before it got REALLY ugly!
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