For Whom did Christ die? - Puritan Logic (Calvinism)

reformed.org ^ | UNK | John Owen

[CCWoody]

FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen

---

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

---

[JohnnyM]

I agree it is complicated and an issue that will never be fully understood with our limited minds while on this earth. Predestination vs free will is a mystery. We cannot grasp it. I believe both exist at the same time, but I also have seen how the more people discuss predestination, the more it hurts their walk with Christ. It will literally drive you mad trying to understand the mind of God.

JM

[xzins]

When after being effected by prevenient grace a man freely rejects Christ, does he then go back to being depraved? How long does prevenient grace last? A moment, a month, a year? Is it rerepeatable over and over?

(a) enabled despite depravity, (b) God's decision, (c) same as b, (d) yes until God reaches the point where he says, "My Spirit will not always strive with man."

[fortheDeclaration]

When after being effected by prevenient grace a man freely rejects Christ, does he then go back to being depraved? How long does prevenient grace last? A moment, a month, a year? Is it rerepeatable over and over? (a) enabled despite depravity, (b) God's decision, (c) same as b, (d) yes until God reaches the point where he says, "My Spirit will not always strive with man."

Amen! See the recent post I made on Unconditional love from the Arminian magazine

[drstevej]

So you could sing this? ***grin*** A duet?

=====

Pre-ven-ient Grace, how sweet the sound,

That coaxed a wretch like me.

I once was lost, but came around,

Was blind, but still could see.

[Elsie]

I thought only the "elect" were enlightened (couldn't we say "regenerated?")?

I guess we could: or 'saved' or 'born again' or 'follower of Christ'

---

How can anyone who has been enlightened "fall away?"

Gosh, I don't know: become 'un'enlightened?
Be convinced by JW's?
Find Mormonism a more excellant way?
Agree that Mohammed IS the 'last' Prophet?
Wonder why a loved one died and blame it on God?

Lots of 'ways' I suppose, but you'll have to take it up with the writer of Hebrews.

[Elsie]

He will look to see if the Blood of His Son covers you. If you are covered then you are saved

---

(Now you get us going on

HOW you are covered........
WHY you are covered........
WHEN you were covered........
WHERE you were covered........
HOW THICKLY you were covered........
DID YOU WASH IT OFF SINCE you were covered........

ad infinitum)

[RnMomof7]

elsie doesn't like hearing it :>))But he is right of course..Johnny you answered your own question...There were only the housholds of Israel that were told to slay the lamb and use the blood...THEY were the elect Remember God had hardened the heart of the pharaoh. God preselected who would be killed...This my friend is a Predestined event

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Love that chart, Mom. Thanks. 8~)

[RnMomof7]

Gosh, I don't know: become 'un'enlightened? Be convinced by JW's?
Find Mormonism a more excellant way?
Agree that Mohammed IS the 'last' Prophet?
Wonder why a loved one died and blame it on God?
Lots of 'ways' I suppose, but you'll have to take it up with the writer of Hebrews.

I guess it depends who you think wrote Hebrews:>)) John said said 1Jo 2:19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

David said Psa 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

I think Jesus said it best of those that go out of the visible church..It also pinpoints the problem with emotional altar calls promising a quick fix,feel good experience

Luk 8:13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

[Hank Kerchief]

Thus, the nature of the Atonement is such that it is sufficient for all the sins of the whole world, but effective only for the elect.

This I totally agree with. I do not think this is the Calvinist position, however.

Hank

[Dr. Eckleburg]

...the more people discuss predestination, the more it hurts their walk with Christ.

In my experience, it's just the opposite.

People often have a confused, negative idea of predestination, making them feel powerless and manipulated.

But I've found when people understand the concept fully, they're able to see the truth and logic of God's total control.

While it feels like we have free will, if the God of all creation exists, then that God sees tomorrow as well as yesterday. He must already know who will sit beside Him in Heaven and who will deny Him. He knows who will receive His loving salvation and who will receive His eternal wrath.

From a Reformed perspective, based on scripture, it follows that those who are living a life that glorifies God are probably on the receiving end of God's regenerating Grace.

Personally, I find it a profoundly comforting, egalitarian faith. All men are equally fallen. We can do nothing to save ourselves. But if we are touched by the Grace of God, we are born again through Christ's sacrifice.

One more thing. It's the only religion that tells men and women to enjoy this life, because it was created by God for His pleasure. It denies all gnostic sense of imperfect mankind striving to surmount his "evil nature." Reformed Theology teaches that though we are dead to God until He touches our hearts with faith, we are still His creation and as such, we are to take pleasure in His work.

As Joe Banks said on the raft, "Thank you, God, for my life. I forgot how BIG you were."

All glory to God.

[RnMomof7]

But do they eat quiche (or keeesh...) ???

Eat it don't make it:>))

[Wrigley]

No worries about you at all, after all you were man enough to admit you had a rainbow sticker.

[The Grammarian]

I suppose that I am restating Finney, although, personally, I find very little with him that I agree with. Governmental theory has support from Scripture--Heck, Is. 53 gives support to it ("The chastisement by which our peace is effected," v. 5)--and, although Penal theory has support from the same verses, I would think this was to be expected, since the two theories appeal to the same people (Gentiles with some point of reference to judicial systems).

But interestingly enough, out of all the theories that Mr. Paton presents, the only one whose logical conclusion is Limited Atonement is the Penal theory. The Jews themselves would have viewed the atonement with the Priesthood as their primary point of reference, as is evidenced by the whole of the Book of Hebrews. "But this man [Jesus], because he continueth forever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them" (He. 7:24,25). The logic behind a priesthood, or even Our Lord's own High Priesthood, is that it is provision--the High Priest did not make particular sacrifices for particular people, but one offering for the generality of his people, after all--and not exactment.

[drstevej]

Not sure I follow your thinking. The death of Christ described in Isaiah 53, which you acknowledge gives support to the penal theory, is a death for Jews and Gentiles.

BTW, do you accept or reject forensic justification (i.e. we are declared righteous based on the work of Christ on the cross for us)? Do you believe in the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the account of those who are justified? Finney denies both. Curious as to where you come out on these.

[CCWoody]

Election is determined by the Father.

I disagree

Disagree all you want. Just know you disagree with the scriptures.

• John 6: 37 - 38 -- All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Now, the verse you quoted in Peter does not establish that election is determined by man for this would set Peter to war with John. Peter merely encourages those who believe they are saved.

• 2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure.

[Corin Stormhands]

No worries about you at all, after all you were man enough to admit you had a rainbow sticker.

Just remember it was the SEVENTIES! But also remember:

I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. - Genesis 9:13

I was also three inches taller in the seventies. Know how?

[Corin Stormhands]

unless it is the words of Christ, in which case they are in red.

Maybe it's my browser, but your red looked like green. (or was that a joke?)

[Cvengr]

Acts 17:30 in context, has Paul addressing the religious men of Greece on Mars Hill. His audience is quite knowledgable already that things spiritual and of other domains that exist. They are also cognizant of historical accounts of divine intervention and plans for man.

Paul, though is bringing them the Gospel. Much to many of their scepticism that Christ rose again from the dead, he is manifesting a point regarding the dispensations.

The Church Age is now upon us. Unlike all other times of man, we have the glorious opportunity to know straight up, all of the things God has prepared for us up until the end of human history with regards to God's plan and man's role in His plan.

No longer are other tests being performed in the angelic conflict which preclude our knowledge of Him and our salvation. Instead it's imperative that we all get the issue of faith and salvation out of the way by believing in Him through faith, and continue the good fight.

Christ died on the Cross for us to have a relationship with Perfect Righteousness through Him by God's plan. But the cross did nothing in regards to removing evil. Evil will be dealt with in time and now is the time for all men to repent and come to Him so evil might be dealt with accordingly.

Don't worry about God's soveriegnty. He can handle it just fine, same with His omnipotence and immutability. Just because he allows men and angels to act upon their independent volition doesn't mean He's changed or is impotent, and BTW neither one of us will or could control that anyhow,...His allowance for man's choice in things has purpose in His plan. It IS His will that we repent, but His plan allows for volition.

Remember, this trial involves an appeal by Satan and the fallen angels. We are presented through out all of human history as evidence in that trial that God's judgment upon the angels is just.

Paul is simply highlighting a point that we are soon going to be approaching final arguments in that trial and now is the time that every believer acting in Him will make tremendous victory in manifesting God's immutability when we act by His will. All we do when we rebel is cause a chain of events to transpire leading to suffering, misery, and miserable failure.

[fortheDeclaration]

Pre-ven-ient Grace, how sweet the sound, That coaxed a wretch like me. I once was lost, but came around, Was blind, but still could see.

Amen! It sounds alot like

Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near (Isa.55:6)