For Whom did Christ die? - Puritan Logic (Calvinism)

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[CCWoody]

FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen

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The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

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[biblewonk]

This is sure a contentious issue isn't it. I believe in predestination but it's hard to discuss the issue even with Christians I have knows for years.

[RnMomof7]

As Sproul noted the topic clears the room:>)) Every man does what is right in his own eyes..every man gets to choose his own god..

[biblewonk]

I suspect that it clears the room of people that have had the discussion a hundred times and know exactly how it will turn out.

[RnMomof7]

LOL

[biblewonk]

Kind of a predestination joke there huh? :-D

[RnMomof7]

Yea...sorta ..LOL

[xzins]

Great list of verses, Elsie. I'm copy-pasting and saving for file!

[JohnnyM]

Why don't you Calvinists stop playing symantics and quit beating around the bush :) This is just a back-door to starting yet another pre-destination thread.

JM

[xzins]

I'm inclined to relate it to total depravity. Prevenient grace is the provision made to overcome the condition.

[Corin Stormhands]

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. - Hebrews 6: 4-6

I thought only the "elect" were enlightened (couldn't we say "regenerated?")? How can anyone who has been enlightened "fall away?"

[RnMomof7]

Do we need an excuse? LOL

We do not need to beat around the bush...remember Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire. :>))

[RnMomof7]

I'm inclined to relate it to total depravity. Prevenient grace is the provision made to overcome the condition.

Too bad it does not work..

[RnMomof7]

I think Jerry has a copyright on blue print:>)

[JohnnyM]

"We do not need to beat around the bush"

My point exactly, but this whole thread seems to be a talking point to get people to discuss predestination. This whole conversion is focused on the issue of the elect and if these elect had any free will in their status as elect, but it seems the Calvinists with their superior logic won't get to the point.

JM

[Corin Stormhands]

I think Jerry has a copyright on blue print:>)

If I didn't give up enjoying the rainbow when the gay rights movement adopted it as their symbol,
I don't have to give up blue type ;-)

Although I will admit I no longer have a rainbow sticker on my car like I did in the seventies...

[RnMomof7]

If I didn't give up enjoying the rainbow when the gay rights movement adopted it as their symbol, I don't have to give up blue type ;-)

As long as there is Blue ink I will always know Jerry's posts........so are you REALLY Jerry???:>)

[Jerry_M]

No, I don’t have a copyright on blue print.

I decided some time back that I would put Scripture in blue, unless it is the words of Christ, in which case they are in red.

Any and all are welcome to adopt this standard.

[RnMomof7]

Naw we talk about IT alot:>) But IT is a complicated topic that is found in all Christian doctrine..thus lots of off shoot discussion...you intersted in a discussion? I am on my way to church.. it is Wed. ya know:>)

[drstevej]

"Prevenient grace is the provision made to overcome the condition."

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When after being effected by prevenient grace a man freely rejects Christ, does he then go back to being depraved? How long does prevenient grace last? A moment, a month, a year? Is it rerepeatable over and over?

[JohnnyM]

Let's use an analogy here, but one that makes sense. Jesus is our Passover Lamb. I hope we all agree on this issue. Now we recall in the OT while the Israelites were still enslaved by Egypt that God was about to bring about his wrath on all men who did not have the blood of the Passover Lamb on their door post. The angel of death was sent to kill the first born of any man who did not have the blood of the lamb on their door post. It did not descriminate between Israelite or Egyptian. It only looked for the BLOOD. The angel of death did not look to see who was inside or to see if they were the elect, it was the blood that mattered. The blood was something that each family chose to place on their door post or not. If they did it, they were spared from God's wrath, if they did not, then they would suffer the consequences. This is the same for the Blood of our Precious Lord, Jesus Christ. When it comes time to be judged before God, He will look to see if the Blood of His Son covers you. If you are covered then you are saved, if you are not then you are sent into His wrath.

JM