Posted on 04/26/2002 9:01:52 AM PDT by WhatNot
Many churches focus on the "eucharist," which for them means the bread of the Lord's Supper. Other believer's don't think the concept of the eucharist is Biblical. But the concept of "eucharist" is Biblical. The word "eucharist" comes from the Greek "eu" meaning "good" and "charis" meaning "grace" or "blessing." The eucharist at the Last Supper was not the bread itself, but the blessing Messiah said over the bread. The blessing is one said in Jewish homes to this day: "Baruch Atah Adonai Elohaynu Melech Ha Olam, Ha Motzee Lechem Min Ha Aretz" - "Blessed are You O Lord Our God, King of the Universe, Who brings forth bread from the earth." This is the true eucharist.
The true eucharist is never eaten, it is given. It is a blessing of thanks to God. It's not the bread, it is the blessing over the bread. And this distinction can change your life. Life doesn't consist of the things you have, but the blessings you say over them. You only truly have what you bless and give thanks for. Give the blessing of thanks over your, bread - your parents, your family, your friends, your situation - over everything, good and bad. And your life itself will be truly blessed, for such is the true eucharist.
Luke 22:14-20
TODAY'S MISSION
Prepare a private communion service today, with you and Messiah. Lift up to Him those things that need to receive His blessing - your loved ones, your job, your ministry.
Here the doc's words again for those who've conveniently forgotten their responsibility to the sick and afflicted. Those highlighted in red are personal attacks or unusual things to say. They are the product of a disordered mind.
Judge for yourselves if I'm the one who's concerned or I'm the one who's the hypocrite.
Subject: Re: The True Eucharist The reason why I posted on the Eucharist thread was to address you in particular. I know that you are not a true Christian and that you are "trying" to be one.
Unfortunately, you are not going about it correctly. You are repeating the mistake I once made. The fact is, you are not even trying to be a **Christian.** You are trying to be a Papist. That really is different.
Today's Papacy is a fraud, Brian. You have been badly suckered. And yes, I say that you were before of old ordained to this condemnation (Jude 4). Augustine himself really **would** denounce you if he were alive in our day--and this despite the fact that he was devoted to the idea of the Papacy in his own day (even though Augustine specifically attacked the notion that the Church of Rome was founded on Peter).
Augustine never realized where his own wrongheaded endorsement of the Papacy was headed. But by the 16th century, it was obvious to spiritually sane people that the Papists had become a bunch of murdering, crooked swine, not Christians.
Your "church" is foul, Brian. It is one of the most morally corrupt entities in Christendom. Some Christians regard Romanism as profoundly embarrassing to Christianity. But I certainly don't. The fact is, Papism is obviously not Christian. It is antichristian.
In other words, you have chosen a false gospel. That's why I decided to make one last appeal to you based on your distinctive (and screwy) doctrine of "transubstantiation."
This is why I dare to tell you that I regard you as a silly cannibal, not a real Christian.
My point, Brian, is that your overall theology is making a fool out of you--i.e., revealing that you are anything **but** a Christian. You need to start noticing this. Being a stubbornly superstitious religious dork does not make you wonderfully spiritual. It just makes you a stubbornly superstitious religious dork.
You are a disgrace to your profession , of course.
Please don't assume that I get a kick out of saying this. Heck, our roles could easily have been reversed. I don't look down on you. You even seem like a bright, interesting fellow. But being bright and interesting count for nothing at all with the God of the Bible. You are hereby warned, Brian.
Unfortunately, you don’t like unctuous, clear warnings. I realize that. In fact, you lovely RCs got OP banned for stating **your own doctrine** of the Eucharist in completely **clear** terms. You RCs were profoundly **embarrassed** to hear it stated so clearly. You were speechless when he demonstrated that your supposedly sublime, supposedly lovely doctrine of the Eucharist is actually quite ABSURD and quite MONSTROUS. Ah, but your demonic controller will never let you be reasonable about this stuff. When you start to lose an argument with a Protestant, you try to **silence** him.
You spiritual idiots would rather go to hell than to admit that a Protestant is right in CONDEMNING your ASININE doctrine of the Eucharist. You would rather whine that we don't understand the Eucharist. But we do understand it. We understand from your doctrine that you are idiots and cannibals to boot. We understand that you are spiritually worthless cowards for failing to rise up against Rome and its filthy superstitions. We understand that you are spiritually worthless cowards by conspiring to suppress someone who has the guts which you lack.
What you are doing in your agitation, of course, is simply blaming us Protestants for your own RCC's stupidity. And you do this over and over and over. When we Protestants **point** out that your silly and flagrantly unscriptural priesthood is overrun with filthy little queers, you want to kill us for telling you the **Truth.** You can't stand the Truth. Rather than face the Truth, you try to kill the Truth-teller.
Hey, it has happened before. The Lord Jesus, the Truth Incarnate, was killed by reprobate religionists aligned with Rome, of course. And it is inarguably **true** that the RCC has murdered MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Christians. What else should we expect from cannibals?
Do you see the pattern? Cannibals, cowards, liars, queers, murderers. It really is the stuff in the Book of Revelations. The RCC really is a Whore of Babylon, of Judaizing Apostasy, sitting on a City of Seven Hills.
And I happen to be a saint. Already. It is quite literally the greatest thing in the world. On the other hand, you are--to put it bluntlySatanically --screwed. The saddest thing about this is that it's your own fault.
If you will abandon Rome, I will joyfully receive you as a brother. Failing that, you will stumble and fall right into the hell from which there is no escape--**ever.** Take your choice. Either way, on Judgment Day, I win.
Sent 04/29/2002 1:16 AM by the_doc
Here the doc's words again for those who've conveniently forgotten their responsibility to the sick and afflicted. Those highlighted in red are personal attacks or unusual things to say. They are the product of a disordered mind.
Judge for yourselves if I'm the one who's concerned or I'm the one who's the hypocrite.
Subject: Re: The True Eucharist The reason why I posted on the Eucharist thread was to address you in particular. I know that you are not a true Christian and that you are "trying" to be one.
Unfortunately, you are not going about it correctly. You are repeating the mistake I once made. The fact is, you are not even trying to be a **Christian.** You are trying to be a Papist. That really is different.
Today's Papacy is a fraud, Brian. You have been badly suckered. And yes, I say that you were before of old ordained to this condemnation (Jude 4). Augustine himself really **would** denounce you if he were alive in our day--and this despite the fact that he was devoted to the idea of the Papacy in his own day (even though Augustine specifically attacked the notion that the Church of Rome was founded on Peter).
Augustine never realized where his own wrongheaded endorsement of the Papacy was headed. But by the 16th century, it was obvious to spiritually sane people that the Papists had become a bunch of murdering, crooked swine, not Christians.
Your "church" is foul, Brian. It is one of the most morally corrupt entities in Christendom. Some Christians regard Romanism as profoundly embarrassing to Christianity. But I certainly don't. The fact is, Papism is obviously not Christian. It is antichristian.
In other words, you have chosen a false gospel. That's why I decided to make one last appeal to you based on your distinctive (and screwy) doctrine of "transubstantiation."
This is why I dare to tell you that I regard you as a silly cannibal, not a real Christian.
My point, Brian, is that your overall theology is making a fool out of you--i.e., revealing that you are anything **but** a Christian. You need to start noticing this. Being a stubbornly superstitious religious dork does not make you wonderfully spiritual. It just makes you a stubbornly superstitious religious dork.
You are a disgrace to your profession , of course.
Please don't assume that I get a kick out of saying this. Heck, our roles could easily have been reversed. I don't look down on you. You even seem like a bright, interesting fellow. But being bright and interesting count for nothing at all with the God of the Bible. You are hereby warned, Brian.
Unfortunately, you don’t like unctuous, clear warnings. I realize that. In fact, you lovely RCs got OP banned for stating **your own doctrine** of the Eucharist in completely **clear** terms. You RCs were profoundly **embarrassed** to hear it stated so clearly. You were speechless when he demonstrated that your supposedly sublime, supposedly lovely doctrine of the Eucharist is actually quite ABSURD and quite MONSTROUS. Ah, but your demonic controller will never let you be reasonable about this stuff. When you start to lose an argument with a Protestant, you try to **silence** him.
You spiritual idiots would rather go to hell than to admit that a Protestant is right in CONDEMNING your ASININE doctrine of the Eucharist. You would rather whine that we don't understand the Eucharist. But we do understand it. We understand from your doctrine that you are idiots and cannibals to boot. We understand that you are spiritually worthless cowards for failing to rise up against Rome and its filthy superstitions. We understand that you are spiritually worthless cowards by conspiring to suppress someone who has the guts which you lack.
What you are doing in your agitation, of course, is simply blaming us Protestants for your own RCC's stupidity. And you do this over and over and over. When we Protestants **point** out that your silly and flagrantly unscriptural priesthood is overrun with filthy little queers, you want to kill us for telling you the **Truth.** You can't stand the Truth. Rather than face the Truth, you try to kill the Truth-teller.
Hey, it has happened before. The Lord Jesus, the Truth Incarnate, was killed by reprobate religionists aligned with Rome, of course. And it is inarguably **true** that the RCC has murdered MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Christians. What else should we expect from cannibals?
Do you see the pattern? Cannibals, cowards, liars, queers, murderers. It really is the stuff in the Book of Revelations. The RCC really is a Whore of Babylon, of Judaizing Apostasy, sitting on a City of Seven Hills.
And I happen to be a saint. Already. It is quite literally the greatest thing in the world. On the other hand, you are--to put it bluntlySatanically --screwed. The saddest thing about this is that it's your own fault.
If you will abandon Rome, I will joyfully receive you as a brother. Failing that, you will stumble and fall right into the hell from which there is no escape--**ever.** Take your choice. Either way, on Judgment Day, I win.
Sent 04/29/2002 1:16 AM by the_doc
Let me share why I read Dr. Scott Hahn and other converts. Because of my involvement in the pro-life movement, I have many Christian, non-Catholic friends. I have the utmost respect for them and their faiths. I say "faiths" because I have friends attending a variety of Protestant churches all with slightly different beliefs on different matters of doctrine. But the most important thing to me was that as Christians, we agree on the primary truths of Christianity: that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God, born of the virgin Mary, died for our sins and our salvation, rose against from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of our Father. Because we agree on the fundamentals, I really never got into theological debate for years.
About two years ago, an acquaintance challenged me on my Catholic faith. I was shocked ... I had actually never been told that Catholics worship Mary! But it hit me: I was a cradle Catholic who didn't understand exactly what being Catholic means. I envied my Protestant friends who could quote Bible verses and have confidence in their interpretation. So I started reading, focusing on answering the questions my friend had posed. I found the best answers with converts, people who had been "anti-Catholic" (for lack of a better word) who realized the truth of the Catholic church. I have recently started reading early church fathers, but with three kids I haven't gotten too far. And, I have read more Scripture in the last two years than I have in the first thirty years of my life.
Lent is a time of conversion, and I will say that last year's Lent was a remarkable time of conversion for me. This Lent I also focused on expanding and strengthening my relationship with God, and that's when I started partaking on these religious posts.
So, on the Eucharist, I believe in Jesus. I believe Him when He said during the Last Supper "This is my body which will be given up for you." I don't think that we are re-sacrificing Jesus, because His sacrifice gave us our salvation. I believe that we are SHARING the Last Supper with our Lord, all of us one body in Christ. That's what communion means, all of us together, sharing, one.
I believe in John ... and I can't tell you what chapter and verse without looking it up, but you want this in my own words ... but in John (I think Chapter 14) Jesus emphatically tells those listening that his flesh is food INDEED and his blood is drink INDEED. He said it over and over again. Like he did with many of his statements and stories when someone in the audience questioned him, he clarified his statements. This time, he strengthed them. He repeated again that unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood we have no life in us.
Does the bread and wine taste like human flesh and blood? No, of course not. The properties are not changed. But that doesn't make the bread any less the flesh of Jesus Christ, or the wine any less the blood of Jesus Christ. We share in His sacrifice which was begun during the Last Supper, just as we hope to share in His Resurrection on the last day.
There are many mysteries in Scripture, many things that we take on fact and on faith. We share in the belief that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, and that He is the Son of God. Is it so difficult -- where God broke all physical and biological rules to beget a Son -- to believe that His Son could be really and truly present in the Holy Eucharist?
God bless.
Regarding Mary being dead ... she is alive in Heaven, as we all seek eternal life with our Lord and Savior.
Throughout scripture, praying for the souls of the dead and departed is status quo. Asking those we know are in Heaven -- like Mary -- to pray for us is Scripturally based. If I can ask you to pray for me, why can't I ask Mary to pray for me? We don't pray TO Mary, we ask for her intercession, as well as all the saints in Heaven. In Revelation the Holy departed bring our petitions and prayers to God the Father. And, if you have listened to a Catholic prayer for Intercession, they all end with "In Jesus name", because ALL prayers are addressed to God through His Son Jesus Christ.
God bless.
I believe Ward "the Hobbit" :>) said it to him.I remember the post and thought it strange a Christian would use that imagery.
THE FORMER "WARD" AND I HAVE BEEN IN CONSULTATION AND THIS IS AN EMAIL HE WOULD LIKE POSTED AFTER READING ANOTHER LIE ABOUT HIMSELF (the above). HE DID NOT SAY THE ABOVE, AND ANYONE WHO SAYS HE DID IS EITHER UNWITTINGLY OR INTENTIONALLY MISREPRESENTING THE TRUTH.
THE LETTER:
They're still talking about Ward? Even my mother doesn't talk about me that much.
Here's the TRUTH. I was at first concerned that Rn would post the email that set me off. Not because it proved me wrong, but because I knew the kind of calvinist feeding frenzy it would produce. Obviously I was right and they're still thirsty for my blood.
Rn's email to me was in response to my pointing out that she had called the "cross" thread a "Christian thread" because she knew the doctrines of those posting there. She said something like (and this is not a quote) anyone who names the name of Christ is a Christian, there is no litmus test. That disagreed with something else she posted on another thread and I called her on it. I pointed out that she had about 20 posts back and forth with the Mormons on the thread she called a "Christian" thread. Later she referred to the same thread as a "Mormon" thread.
No longer having access to my account is a bit of a hinderance in pulling up some of the things calvinists said before that email, including my being called immature, emotionally unstable, unregenerate, stubborn, blind, pathetic, whiny and by Rn herself a "Christ Hater." (although she did apologize for that about three weeks after the fact). And after the incident and before I left I was call a liar, a weasel, a drama queen, pathetic, passive-agressive (okay, we'll take that - it's a southern thing), and I can't recall what else.
But it was in the context of THOSE posts that I reacted. That I over-reacted. I was steamed and I struck back in anger. That was wrong and I have - on multiple occasions - apologized for that. Quite frankly, what I sent back to Rn in response was worse than what she said to me - initially. What I said to her was wrong. It had some truth in it, but the tone and the words were wrong. I never had the chance to apologize to RnMomof7 for that. I do so now.
When patent said I should've posted it the "attack," I guess I could've been more forceful than "it wasn't a threat." But somehow, I thought that would take care of it.
I clarified that there was a disconnect between the email and the "beat the crap out of statement" but noted I could see how the two were taken together.
Rn initially offered an olive branch of sorts saying "we will allow your mis-speak." I don't know if that was before or after she started distributing the email.
I again clafified that I meant that the calvinists indeed do "beat the crap" out of other posters that dare to disagree with calvinism. No one needs to take my word for that. All the non-calvinists (and some of the honest calvinists) know it to be true.
Now of course the calvinists assert that I left because I was caught in a lie. No, I left because I became the favorite target for their assaults. Again, this is not an exact quote, but I received an email from the_doc that said something like "You have no idea what we are prepared to do."
I see there's been a lot of discussion about doc's "intent," specifically with the email to Dr. Brian Kopp. I'm sure the claim to me will be that "we were going to post the email." But could I know that for sure?
Quite frankly, I panicked. I was never afraid that "Ward" would be exposed. There was nothing to expose. But I realize that I've revealed a lot of personal information over the last few weeks, mostly through prayer concerns. Some that was linked from my profile page, some through the incident with the boys killed in the car accident. I once even directed Rn to a picture of my son (which thankfully is no longer on the web).
I realized that these people could find their way directly to my church door, my home and probably my place of employment.
Paranoia? Probably. Completely unfounded? I don't think so.
So I created a new persona. I don't spend much time on these threads anymore and don't really intend to.
But this should serve as public notice that any attempt to link my new identity with "Ward" will be considered an attempt to expose my personal information.
And you know I can find the abuse key.
My point is gop unless you elevate them to gods..they can not hear your prayer
Ohhhhhhhhh yes X we do know !! It is "do as we say don't do as we do"..
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Your point is unScriptural, it has no basis in the faith of the early Christians, and like your defense of the_doc's words it is quite simply wrong.
The first thing I would say is that I don't agree that the "metaphor" was not to be understood by all and never was intended to be understood by all. I agree that God knows who accepts and rejects His word, but I do believe that the Word of God is for everyone.
Second, the twelve apostles all believed that the Holy Eucharist was in fact the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, "I am the bread of Life". If we can believe -- which I believe we both agree -- that Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world -- that He is also the bread of Life. Being such, is it impossible to believe that He is truly present in the Eucharist? That when we partake in communion we are sharing the Last Supper with our Lord?
Using your reasoning, those who Jesus intended to understand stayed (the twelve). The Apostles all believed that Jesus spoke not in a metaphor, but in the truth:
1 Cor 11:23-29In addition, early church fathers, never doubted the real presence. I believe I read the Martin Luther himself -- the author of the Protestant Reformation -- believed in the Real Presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.John, the beloved Disciple who was also present during the Last Supper, wrote in Jn 6:53-56
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him."St Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians confirms what he believes:
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor 10:16)I believe Jesus intended for us to continue to partake in the Last Supper, His sacrifice, when he said:
"This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me." (Lk 22:19)
I understand how it can be very difficult to believe in something that you can't see or taste or touch. But I can't see or taste or touch the Holy Spirit, and I know that He was sent forth by God and is also God.
God bless.
but I received an email from the_doc that said something like "You have no idea what we are prepared to do."Ask Ward if the doc explained this statement at all.
The doc, please explain what you meant. On its face this is a threat, and this needs to be addressed. If that is what he said, IMHO that is it.
patent +AMDG
I have a clue as to what the F.B.I. might do were they to get a copy of that little "warning".
greetings Ward - we miss your company
No praying to the dead is unscriptural.....show me the assumption...or prayers to the dead in scripture...History only God is omnipresent..so only God can be present to all our thoughts and all our prayers at the same time..
Why did God make me.."to know ,love and serve him in this world and the next.." a right on bit of the old Baltimore Catechism...Right now Mary and all of the Saints are doing exactly what they were created for..enjoying God forever.. Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Amen!
They walked away because they were not his elect. - Please read John ch. 6, and you will find that Christ states that he did not lose any that the Father had given him, so if he lost these, then they were NOT his.
Verse 63 is so plain that I cannot see how you would try to squirm out from it.
And you should tell the context! I asked you that because we were having a decent ongoing ecumenical discussion, and as a fellow Christian I did not want to be put in the place of being mutual enemies. If you attack the Real Presence, you attack Christ. And my response will be as if you were attacking Christ, a position I did not want to be in given our friendly conversations at the time.
Brian did his usual Paste and copy spam when he had no answer..a rather obvious attempt to cut off discussion
Your deceptions are getting tiresome!
You know the context!
The_doc claimed early Christians believed John 6 metaphorically.
I posted the beliefs of the early Christians to refute his claim.
Being refuted, instead of continuing the debate, he engaged in personal attack.
You are so far gone its not worth debating you, or any of your OP peers.
When you lose a debate, when historical proof is posted to disprove your lies, thus putting an end to your deceptions, you attack personally and accuse your opponent of spamming the thread.
Pathetic. Pitiful. Lord of mercy on you in your intransigence and sin.
...Right now Mary and all of the Saints are doing exactly what they were created for..enjoying God forever.. Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Yes, Mary and all the Saints are enjoying God forever, ALIVE in the kingdom of God. Isn't that what we are all striving for here on Earth? Eternal life?
Therefore, we are not "praying to the dead" (we don't pray to saints, either, we ask for their intercession, essentially for them to pray for us).
The earliest church fathers practiced praying for the dead:
Tertullian (211) Wrote that Christians offered prayer and the Eucharist for the deceased on the anniversaries of their death.So we are in communion with the saints in Heaven. It is right to ask for their prayers.St. Augustine (354 - 430) wrote: "Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church, which even now is the Kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ."
As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth.
Revelation 5:8 John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Rev 5:8); also: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4)
If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Throughout Scripture St. Paul and other apostles, and especially Jesus Christ Himself, ask us not only to pray for one another or for them, but to pray for those we don't know or even like.
I think that it's important to realize that the Catholic Mass -- the central act of Catholic worship -- directs all prayer and worship to God and His Son, Jesus Christ our Savior. God is the beginning and end of all prayer, even those prayers where we ask fellow Christians -- particularly those in Heaven and closer to God -- to pray for us.
God bless.
The last verse you quote destroys your point!
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