[saradippity]

Excuse me for butting in but I just reread the letters to the churches in Apocalypse/Revelations,chapters 2 and 3 and ask that you read it also.To me,it seems impossible to deny that we are judged according to our labours,works,ministries,charity and adherence to doctrine.It also appears that behaviors are included in those things for which we will be judged.And that penance is necessary to rectify failures.

There seems to be no question that man can fall and fail to "overcome" and thereby lose eternal life or the "crown". It talks about resisting temptation and the entire chapters seem to affirm Ventana's contention that one can fall from grace and lose eternal life despite,at one time believing and being faithful.

I would be interested in all of your interpretation of those two chapters since I fail to see how it could be possible to read and understand it differently than I do.But then again I may be one who has eyes but does not see.Thanks for your input. I'ss be especially interested in how you read it JH.

[saradippity]

I'ss ='s I'll

[ventana]

Well, to me.

These were exhortations to "The Churches." On that at least we must agree.

So what is a Church? A community of Believers. People who have individually come to Christ. Now according to OSAS. These people must have already been saved, right? Once and for always? So what is it that they still needed to overcome?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

There is no doubt our works will be judged. We have all stated that. Rather you agree with this or not do you understand what we are saying: We believe there will be a judgement of believers. All believers are saved, their works will be tried by fire, any works that survive the test will be rewarded. 1 Cor. 3:11-15 lays this out as plain as the nose on your face.

The lost will be judged at the end of the 1000 yr reign of Christ. This is called the Great White Throne Judgement. Everyone at this judgement is lost. They will be shown where their name was erased out of the book of life, then cast into the lake of fire.

The letters to the church in Rev. are to written to churches not individuals. They should be read in that context. Some of the people individually would be saved, but the church themselves my end up in destruction because as a whole it was not doing what it should.

Becky

[Uri’el-2012]

saradippity ;JHavard; ventana; CindyDawg; RobbyS

Excuse me for butting in but I just reread the letters to the churches in Apocalypse/Revelations,chapters 2 and 3 and ask that you read it also.To me,it seems impossible to deny that we are judged according to our labours,works,ministries,charity and adherence to doctrine.It also appears that behaviors are included in those things for which we will be judged.And that penance is necessary to rectify failures.

There seems to be no question that man can fall and fail to "overcome" and thereby lose eternal life or the "crown". It talks about resisting temptation and the entire chapters seem to affirm Ventana's contention that one can fall from grace and lose eternal life despite,at one time believing and being faithful.

I would be interested in all of your interpretation of those two chapters since I fail to see how it could be possible to read and understand it differently than I do.But then again I may be one who has eyes but does not see.Thanks for your input. I'ss be especially interested in how you read it JH.

52,217 posted on 05/08/2003 12:23 AM MDT by saradippity

Please see this for another view of Revelation 2 & 3

Matthew 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say,
`Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" [Psalm 118:26]


Barukh haba b'Shem Adonai
Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord
Y'shua HaMashiach

chuck <truth@YeshuaHaMashiach>

[JHavard]

I would be interested in all of your interpretation of those two chapters since I fail to see how it could be possible to read and understand it differently than I do.But then again I may be one who has eyes but does not see.Thanks for your input. I'ss/I'll be especially interested in how you read it JH.

Sara, thanks for bringing Rev 2 and 3 back to my attention, because when I was in the WWCofG, we thought we were the church of Philadelphia, Hummmm, I wonder why Herbert chose that one? Lol

I’m not sure if some have purposely tried to change what we NC's believe eternal security means, or if it’s by accident, but where have you ever heard a believer in “Eternal security” or as you prefer to call it, “OSAS”, ever make a statement, that since we are saved for eternity, that means we don’t have to overcome or chance and grow in God’s Spirit or have works?

We may have made the claim that we don’t take credit for overcoming, and give the fruits of His Spirit back to God, but I personally know of no one, who thinks we don’t have to make changes in our lives and persevere until we die, or Christ returns.

The 7 churches in Rev are thought provoking, and where I used to think it represented the Catholic Church and the Baptist, and of course the WWCG, I see now it represents all of us believers in His “church,” at different stages of growth and time eras we are in and go through.

Now if I have convinced you that we the saved have to overcome just as you do, then when it talks about the church that needs to repent, or overcome, or persevere, or get off the fence, each of us can fall into that category.

Those who God said needed to repent, (turn around) well, …..they need to repent and turn around, why else would God give them this warning if He didn’t think they would take heed and do as He said, so He can forgive them?

The Lord had John write this as a warning to us today, so we wouldn’t be among those who it describes in the 7 churches.

Now since all of us know we are capable of mistakes and sin, even when our eternal life is secured, we all should take heed from this, and ask God to help us see our sin and repent and ask Him to take those sins from us.

Here is where we separate in our thinking. You read Rev, 1 and 2 and hear God say that if you aren’t earning your salvation by accomplishing works, God will send us to hell, and we’ll loose our eternal life. Is that essentially your feelings?

Now please read back through the warning to the 7 churches, and show me where God said we would loose our eternal life if we were guilty of any of these things.

In fact a few of them had no direct penalty, but the ones that did, here was the penalty.

Rev 2:5 - Ephesus, - I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place,

V-12 - Pergamos - Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

V-14 - Laodiceans - I will spue thee out of my mouth.

These are the only 3 churches who God spelled out their punishment, but none of them are eternal death or loss of salvation.

Even the worse one, to have God spew us out, doesn’t sound like eternal death to me, He spews us out so we’ll see our sin and repent and change.

The other 4 churches apparently repent and are forgiven since God forgives them and they are back in his graces.

My discussion with Ventana was partially over him saying we Christians would not receive crowns, but again in Rev 3:11, Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

This is the warning that God was giving His church, that they could loose their rewards and their crowns by not cleaning their lives up before they die or Christ returns. This isn’t about salvation, since God calls them His church, it’s about rewards, not salvation, God doesn’t want us to loose the rewards we worked for.

These warnings aren’t to destroy us for eternity, there to help save our rewards and our crowns.

Crowns represent our victories and good works, and God is again telling these 7 churches to hold onto their crowns, so thanks to the warning, we will.

End of 1st part, more on the way sara. Lol

JH :-)