Sara, thanks for bringing Rev 2 and 3 back to my attention, because when I was in the WWCofG, we thought we were the church of Philadelphia, Hummmm, I wonder why Herbert chose that one? Lol
I’m not sure if some have purposely tried to change what we NC's believe eternal security means, or if it’s by accident, but where have you ever heard a believer in “Eternal security” or as you prefer to call it, “OSAS”, ever make a statement, that since we are saved for eternity, that means we don’t have to overcome or chance and grow in God’s Spirit or have works?
We may have made the claim that we don’t take credit for overcoming, and give the fruits of His Spirit back to God, but I personally know of no one, who thinks we don’t have to make changes in our lives and persevere until we die, or Christ returns.
The 7 churches in Rev are thought provoking, and where I used to think it represented the Catholic Church and the Baptist, and of course the WWCG, I see now it represents all of us believers in His “church,” at different stages of growth and time eras we are in and go through.
Now if I have convinced you that we the saved have to overcome just as you do, then when it talks about the church that needs to repent, or overcome, or persevere, or get off the fence, each of us can fall into that category.
Those who God said needed to repent, (turn around) well, …..they need to repent and turn around, why else would God give them this warning if He didn’t think they would take heed and do as He said, so He can forgive them?
The Lord had John write this as a warning to us today, so we wouldn’t be among those who it describes in the 7 churches.
Now since all of us know we are capable of mistakes and sin, even when our eternal life is secured, we all should take heed from this, and ask God to help us see our sin and repent and ask Him to take those sins from us.
Here is where we separate in our thinking. You read Rev, 1 and 2 and hear God say that if you aren’t earning your salvation by accomplishing works, God will send us to hell, and we’ll loose our eternal life. Is that essentially your feelings?
Now please read back through the warning to the 7 churches, and show me where God said we would loose our eternal life if we were guilty of any of these things.
In fact a few of them had no direct penalty, but the ones that did, here was the penalty.
Rev 2:5 - Ephesus, - I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place,
V-12 - Pergamos - Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
V-14 - Laodiceans - I will spue thee out of my mouth.
These are the only 3 churches who God spelled out their punishment, but none of them are eternal death or loss of salvation.
Even the worse one, to have God spew us out, doesn’t sound like eternal death to me, He spews us out so we’ll see our sin and repent and change.
The other 4 churches apparently repent and are forgiven since God forgives them and they are back in his graces.
My discussion with Ventana was partially over him saying we Christians would not receive crowns, but again in Rev 3:11, Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
This is the warning that God was giving His church, that they could loose their rewards and their crowns by not cleaning their lives up before they die or Christ returns. This isn’t about salvation, since God calls them His church, it’s about rewards, not salvation, God doesn’t want us to loose the rewards we worked for.
These warnings aren’t to destroy us for eternity, there to help save our rewards and our crowns.
Crowns represent our victories and good works, and God is again telling these 7 churches to hold onto their crowns, so thanks to the warning, we will.
End of 1st part, more on the way sara. Lol
JH :-)
Remember God was going to destroy Nineveh, but they heeded His warning and the destruction was averted. God warns us when he knows we will change.
Lets pray these warnings served the purpose of why God gave them.
Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mark 9: 41. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
1 Cor 3: 14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
V-15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Note above, that a mans works/rewards and salvation are two totally separate things. This mans rewards/works, can be burnt up, done away with, but even so, it has no effect on his salvation, he shall still be saved.
2 John 8:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
Consider this sara, If its our works, that reward us with salvation, then what would we need a full reward for? Are there different degrees of being saved? A less then full reward, would that mean we are just a little saved? A full reward, would that mean we were really saved big time? Lol
JH :-) PS, I'm sorry this post was so long, I'm getting old and I forget to stop sometimes. LOl
My main question for you would be, why is there no place in scripture wher we're told that a believer will ever loose his salvation, or go to hell, in those words? Why did He always use words that can have many neanings?
Since loosing our eternal life would be the worse thing that could happen to a Christian believer, why wouldn't God make sure we understood what our fate would be?
The only answer I can think of is because God knew no believer would ever loose his salvation and go to hell.
End of PS Lol
What are you implying? Is that Garner Ted's dad?
This assigning Biblical church identities to current denominations is something new to me, and XSt linked to it the other day as well. Is this something you still believe? Any links to reasons why, rather than them just being the Churches back then?
v.