The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[OLD REGGIE]

I gave it a great deal of serious thought. I even sat through a fairly long sermon several months ago on this very topic. And was shocked how even my priest could get this wrong. My son (a man who was instrumental in my conversion to Catholicism) and I hashed this out at great length.

I suspect you are alone in your understanding. IOW, you are either the only correct one or you are mistaken.

Maybe you should read it again and again consider which one satisfied Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Consider what was "the will of the father" in this parable. Remember, it is a parable. The "will of the father" was to "go work in the vineyard". Who met this condition? Who did not?

[JHavard]

He was saying, therefore, that the correct choice, that the Priests and Elders should have chosen, was the second son. Who failed, who did not go, who was so typically, humanly, imperfect, but who at least loved his Father enough to say "Yes"

Well I can at least understand why the hierarchy doesn't allow its members to interpret scripture. :-)

So you would prefer people to be a hypocrite and a liar, as long as they gave you respectful sounding lip service.

Jesus was showing them that even they knew the correct answer as to which son did the right thing, so there was no excuse for them to be doing the same, to promise God yes, then when he was gone, said hell with you.

Did you consider the son checking on his little sister that I asked you about, and you didn't mention the fact that the fathers will was, that they go to work, not some psychological brain trap?

Do you know of anyone else in the world that has this same opinion?

JH :-)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Distance isn't a problem but I guess it depends on how long the horse can tolerate being in a trailer.

Hey this reminds me. My daughter-in-laws brother is getting married in June in Farmingtion NM. We are thinking about going and making a vacation of it. We will be going thru Tx. Where do you live? Anywhere near the route that takes you to Albecurque (sp:) NM?

Horses can tolerate being in a trailer for quite awhile. I have hauled to Tx several times for competitions. You want to stop every 4-6 hours and let them stand in the trailer still for an hour or so, so they get a rest from the motion and vibration, and balanceing. Probably over 8-10 hours you would want to unload them and let them move around some. I've never hauled that long. but I know a lot of people who have. I have a friend who hauls horses all over the country for people as part of her job.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Site I have looked at for horses:

http://buyhorses.com/scripts/main.exe?2053

Becky

[CindyDawg]

Sorry to hear about your dog. At least she died doing what she enjoyed though. Yall are most welcome, but to get to my place you drive to the bottom of Texas and stop 5 miles before you get to the Mexican border :') When we go thru NM we take I10 out of San Antonio but I think yall will take I20 out of Ft Worth? I saw Ksens post about the hobbit get together. We should plan something like that for the NES.

Hey Doug, I bought the Idiot book on horses. Want to borrow it when I'm thru with it?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Check this guy out:

http://buyhorses.com/scripts/hrsdetl.exe?1051557557&0

If he is as good as he sounds, this is what you are looking for.

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

What's going on in Oklahoma? Enough is enough!

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Yall are most welcome, but

LOL, I didn't mean that to sound like we were going to come to your house, just thought it would be fun to maybe meet and have supper or something if you were close to where we would be passing:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I am assuming you are speaking of the weather? We have yet to have any, and we are about 3 miles from where all the action was last night? We got nothing, no rain, no wind, no hail. Thank you God.

Becky

[ventana]

he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The work could have been done by servants. what he wanted was obedience. He wants "YES"

Who met this condition? To say "no" is disobedient. To work after saying NO is to work because you will it, not because He does.

The clue, for me, is that you are both choosing the same son that the Priests did. Are you saying that the priests were right?

Are you saying Jesus was saying sinners went to Heaven?

When you read the Bible, do you feel you are fulfilling every requirement? Are you now perfect? No? But you did say yes, right?

v.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Looks like we better wait on this one a while. :)

Plaintiffs Win More Cigarette Suit Rights
5/10/2003 11:08:00 AM

Friday 10, 2003 (AP Online via COMTEX) -- An Illinois judge on Friday gave more rights to those who won a $10.1 billion judgment against Philip Morris USA to collect if the company ever files for bankruptcy protection.

But Madison County Judge Nicholas Byron left intact an earlier order their attorneys bitterly opposed, letting the company post a reduced bond before appealing the verdict.

Plaintiffs attorney Stephen Tillery said he will appeal Friday's order, arguing it doesn't do what state law requires - ensuring the money will be there if the full verdict amount is ultimately upheld.

"We got a little more protection on the $6 billion note" from its corporate parent, Altria Group, that will serve as the company's first payment toward the appeal bond, said Tillery's spokeswoman, Joy Howell, after Friday's hearing.

"But (Friday's order) still leaves the class at risk" for the full $10.1 billion judgment, plus interest, if Philip Morris files for protection under bankruptcy laws before the plaintiffs could prevail on appeal, she said.

Lawyers for the nation's largest cigarette maker praised Friday's order, saying it enables the company to proceed with its plans to appeal the March verdict directly to the Illinois Supreme Court.

"It lets us get on with the real issue - the certification of the (plaintiff) class," said John Mulderig, associate general counsel at Altria.

He downplayed the significance of Judge Byron's order Friday giving plaintiffs exclusive rights to the $6 billion note in the event of a bankruptcy proceeding.

"The idea is, the bond is secure for the class," he said after Friday's hearing.

Philip Morris has often said a round of adverse legal judgments could push it into bankruptcy, including a record $145 billion verdict handed down in Florida in 2000 against severl major tobacco makers. That decision is currently on appeal.

A decision Friday followed a full day Thursday of rancorous debate in Judge Byron's courtroom over the plaintiffs' rights to the judgment if the company files for protection from its creditors under Chapter 11 of the federal bankruptcy laws.

At one point, Byron threatened to hand down a wholly new bond order "that neither side will like," requiring the company to pay $3.2 billion in installments over four years, after putting up $200 million by June 30; or by putting up a $3.8 billion surety.

"We can't do that, Judge," Philip Morris attorney George Lombardi immediately said, in keeping with the company's contention that it doesn't have much cash on hand.

"You made $5.1 billion in net income last year!" Judge Byron shouted from the bench in Thursday's hearing.

In March, Byron found the company committed consumer fraud in marketing its Marlboro Lights and Cambridge Lights cigarettes as less harmful than regular brands. He ordered the company to pay 1.1 million Illinois smokers $10.1 billion, and $3 billion to the state.

[JHavard]

Matthew 21: 31. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

When Jesus said "verily", this was a positive statement affirming their answer was the correct one.

SGN-281-truly, amen, trustworthy, adverbially, surely, so be it. All of these words are positive and affirmative.

Jesus always gave parables that had an obvious answer, so they would see that when it came to them, the same answer didn’t apply, so they saw in their own heart it conflicted with the obvious answer.

Usually the Pharisees said nothing, or held their peace when they knew the obvious answer would condemn them, but in Mt 21:28-31, they weren't expecting it to turn on them.

JH :-)

[ventana]

Well I can at least understand why the hierarchy doesn't allow its members to interpret scripture. :-)

LOL

So you would prefer people to be a hypocrite and a liar, as long as they gave you respectful sounding lip service.

If you read what I actually said, you will see that I was merely describing the actual human condition. We are told to be perfect, but we will not end up anywhere near that field.

The negative weighting of the words you use is totally, completely absent from the passage.

Jesus was showing them that even they knew the correct answer as to which son did the right thing, so there was no excuse for them to be doing the same, to promise God yes, then when he was gone, said hell with you.

Yeah, I can see that. OK. The Priest and the Elders were working in the field, however, and quite vigorously. But they were exercising their own will, not the will of God.

Did you consider the son checking on his little sister that I asked you about, and you didn't mention the fact that the fathers will was, that they go to work, not some psychological brain trap?

Yes I did. does God actually need our help with anything? Does Gods work get done, with or without our help? Does God ask us to say "Yes"-----no one has actually responded to that aspect of my position, will you answer it, please?

Does saying yes constitute obedience? Even if you fail, fall, or falter?

If a soldier obeys an order, but falls under fire and fails to accomplish his mission, and another soldier is insubbordinate, refuses a direct order but later goes anyway, which one gets the purple heart, and which one gets disciplined?

The greek word metamellomai is a very awkward translation that can easily mean "he cared to do it afterwards" meaning to me that it may have been his own will that landed the first son out in the field. However KJV translates it Repents, others say "Changed his mind" or "regretted" Hebrews 7:21 uses the same word as "will" (His own will)

So to my fevered mind, the first son wills himself to go into the field, without any concern for his loyalty to his Father.

Do you know of anyone else in the world that has this same opinion?

None so far but one. My son sees it the same way. The analogy we have used is people who do good in the world today without feeling they do Gods work. Secular Humanists and the like. Can they be doing the will of God if they deny Gods authority over them? It is their will. Not Gods.

v.

[ventana]

When Jesus said "verily", this was a positive statement affirming their answer was the correct one.

I bek=lieve whan people say "Verily I say unto you" it means "I am telling you the truth", not "you are telling me the truth.

Jesus always gave parables that had an obvious answer, so they would see that when it came to them, the same answer didn?t apply, so they saw in their own heart it conflicted with the obvious answer.

Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Parables did not have obvious answers.

v.

[ventana]

bek=liev

believe

duh.

[CindyDawg]

You didn't but the invitation is still open. Just wanted to make sure you knew that you don't just pass by us, lol. Let me know when yall are leaving and how you are going. If Eddie and I are around the lake maybe we can find a cracker barrel :')

[DouglasKC]

Yesterday when I went out to feed, one of my Blue Heelers got kicked in the head by my mare. She was DRT (dead right there). I couldn't believe it.

Wow...sorry to read about that. It's a good story in a sad sort of way if you know what I mean.

[DouglasKC]

The kids were amazed at the size and color, (green) and the moms were all holding their noses and gasping. LOL. Just cracks me up. The really fun part of this is to nonchantly walk over and kick the pile out of the way. That really gets em:). Of course that happened when Mack had just come out to take everyones picture in front of the horse. What a day!!:)

lol...what a funny story! You need to post that picture sometime so I can really appreciate it. :-)

[DouglasKC]

Hey Doug, I bought the Idiot book on horses. Want to borrow it when I'm thru with it?

They really have such a book lol??

I'll let you hold it in reserve just in case i ever decide to buy a horse. :-)

[CindyDawg]

Yep. An orange, "The complete IDIOT"S guide to Horses" book. 14.95 plus tax at Walden's (minus my 10% discount)