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To: OLD REGGIE; JHavard
he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The work could have been done by servants. what he wanted was obedience. He wants "YES"

Who met this condition? To say "no" is disobedient. To work after saying NO is to work because you will it, not because He does.

The clue, for me, is that you are both choosing the same son that the Priests did. Are you saying that the priests were right?

Are you saying Jesus was saying sinners went to Heaven?

When you read the Bible, do you feel you are fulfilling every requirement? Are you now perfect? No? But you did say yes, right?

v.

52,710 posted on 05/10/2003 4:03:41 PM PDT by ventana
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To: angelo
Looks like we better wait on this one a while. :)

Plaintiffs Win More Cigarette Suit Rights
5/10/2003 11:08:00 AM

Friday 10, 2003 (AP Online via COMTEX) -- An Illinois judge on Friday gave more rights to those who won a $10.1 billion judgment against Philip Morris USA to collect if the company ever files for bankruptcy protection.

But Madison County Judge Nicholas Byron left intact an earlier order their attorneys bitterly opposed, letting the company post a reduced bond before appealing the verdict.

Plaintiffs attorney Stephen Tillery said he will appeal Friday's order, arguing it doesn't do what state law requires - ensuring the money will be there if the full verdict amount is ultimately upheld.

"We got a little more protection on the $6 billion note" from its corporate parent, Altria Group, that will serve as the company's first payment toward the appeal bond, said Tillery's spokeswoman, Joy Howell, after Friday's hearing.

"But (Friday's order) still leaves the class at risk" for the full $10.1 billion judgment, plus interest, if Philip Morris files for protection under bankruptcy laws before the plaintiffs could prevail on appeal, she said.

Lawyers for the nation's largest cigarette maker praised Friday's order, saying it enables the company to proceed with its plans to appeal the March verdict directly to the Illinois Supreme Court.

"It lets us get on with the real issue - the certification of the (plaintiff) class," said John Mulderig, associate general counsel at Altria.

He downplayed the significance of Judge Byron's order Friday giving plaintiffs exclusive rights to the $6 billion note in the event of a bankruptcy proceeding.

"The idea is, the bond is secure for the class," he said after Friday's hearing.

Philip Morris has often said a round of adverse legal judgments could push it into bankruptcy, including a record $145 billion verdict handed down in Florida in 2000 against severl major tobacco makers. That decision is currently on appeal.

A decision Friday followed a full day Thursday of rancorous debate in Judge Byron's courtroom over the plaintiffs' rights to the judgment if the company files for protection from its creditors under Chapter 11 of the federal bankruptcy laws.

At one point, Byron threatened to hand down a wholly new bond order "that neither side will like," requiring the company to pay $3.2 billion in installments over four years, after putting up $200 million by June 30; or by putting up a $3.8 billion surety.

"We can't do that, Judge," Philip Morris attorney George Lombardi immediately said, in keeping with the company's contention that it doesn't have much cash on hand.

"You made $5.1 billion in net income last year!" Judge Byron shouted from the bench in Thursday's hearing.

In March, Byron found the company committed consumer fraud in marketing its Marlboro Lights and Cambridge Lights cigarettes as less harmful than regular brands. He ordered the company to pay 1.1 million Illinois smokers $10.1 billion, and $3 billion to the state.


52,711 posted on 05/10/2003 5:08:38 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: ventana; OLD REGGIE
Matthew 21: 31. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

When Jesus said "verily", this was a positive statement affirming their answer was the correct one.

SGN-281-truly, amen, trustworthy, adverbially, surely, so be it. All of these words are positive and affirmative.

Jesus always gave parables that had an obvious answer, so they would see that when it came to them, the same answer didn’t apply, so they saw in their own heart it conflicted with the obvious answer.

Usually the Pharisees said nothing, or held their peace when they knew the obvious answer would condemn them, but in Mt 21:28-31, they weren't expecting it to turn on them.

JH :-)

52,712 posted on 05/10/2003 5:18:42 PM PDT by JHavard (Never, I say never accept a free gift from a Catholic...............................:-)----)
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To: ventana
Who met this condition? To say "no" is disobedient. To work after saying NO is to work because you will it, not because He does.

To say "NO" is defiant and disrespectful, but not disobedient. This is because obedience/disobedience is in the complying/not complying of the subject of a command.

Even if you were to say "Yes" to a command, and then, immediately, proceeded to comply with the command, you would still be doing it because you willed it. It is simply that you have bent your will to comply with that of another.

The clue, for me, is that you are both choosing the same son that the Priests did. Are you saying that the priests were right?

As JH previously stated, JESUS, when dealing with the Pharisees, often ask questions of them which had very obvious answers, and, just as obviously, reflected badly upon the Pharisees. As JH further said, in most of these cases, the Pharisees realized what Jesus was doing and would, simply, refuse to give Him an answer.

Are you saying Jesus was saying sinners went to Heaven?

Well, of course sinners (in that they have sinned) go to heaven! Forgiven sinners! That's what the publicans and harlots were who JESUS was speaking of. They had been sinners, but had listened to and believed JESUS' preaching, and so, had received forgiveness of their sins.

This is exactly what the Pharisees were unwilling to do. The Pharisees thought that they had it all in the bag, due to their works. When JESUS would explain to them that they needed forgiveness just like publicans and harlots, they were highly insulted. The Pharisees steadfastly refused to hear JESUS' message and so, their sins (the chiefest of which was pride) continued unforgiven.

I would recommend more study of the Gospels to check this out.

Why not start with the following passages and proceed from there ...
Luke 7:36 Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table.

37 When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume,

38 and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is-- that she is a sinner."

40 Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you." "Tell me, teacher," he said.

41 "Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.

42 Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"

43 Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled." "You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

44 Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.

45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet.

46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet.

47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven-- for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

48 Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

49 The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."


Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

52,723 posted on 05/10/2003 7:22:29 PM PDT by Quester
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To: ventana; JHavard
The clue, for me, is that you are both choosing the same son that the Priests did. Are you saying that the priests were right?

Yes!

Matthew 23:
[1] Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples,
[2] "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat;
[3] so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

52,734 posted on 05/11/2003 8:02:01 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE ((I am a cult of one! UNITARJEWMIAN))
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